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Jarl
12-21-2009, 05:30 PM
Background


Slavic pre-Christian religion is one of the least known in comparison to other European peoples. There are no direct accounts which would describe its character. The only surviving sources which give some insight into Slavic paganism are the early Christian chronicles, like Nestor’s chronicle (Повесть временных лет) or Kosmas’ chronicle. Prokopios Kaisareus, the Byzantine historian wrote a brief account of Slavic religion.

Consequently, our knowledge of early Slavic religion is extremely fragmentary and not sufficient to reconstruct the pantheon or the mythology. All we know are general descriptions of single deities and customs distorted and described from a Christian, often non-Slavic, perspective.Religion of the Polabian tribes and East Slavs has been described slightly better than those of others.



Reconstructions of Creation Myth and Pantheon


Slavic creation myth has been reconstructed by ethnographists mostly from the Ukrainian and Bulgarian folklore legends. According to these tales, the world has been created from a primeval ocean or an abyss by Sventovit (who in some versions is replaced by Perun or Rod), as well as Svarog and Weles. These three deities were most likely the three main gods of the Slavic pantheon. Sventovit (or Perun) was most likely the main deity, a god-creator, while Svarog and Weles represented respectively the forces of light and darkness. According to the legends, Svarog and Weles together erected the land above the primeval ocean using the sand from the bottom of the abyss. However, they quarrelled over who will assume the rule over land and, as a result, Sventovit divided the world into two domains.


Weles became the god of magic, lore and riches. He became the ruler of the underworld or “Nawii”, where souls of the dead would go for rest. According to Nestor’s chronicle, written in Medieval Rus, it was a custom among the Slavs to take oaths in the name of Weles, or, in case of warriors, in the name of Perun. An old Russian document called “A word on Igor’s expedition” (Слово о плъку Игоревѣ), indicates that Weles was the patron-deity of sages and fortune-tellers. It is however interesting that Vladimir I, the pagan duke of Kievan Rus, did not list Weles as one of the Slavic gods to whom he erected statues in 980. Accoring to some scholars Weles was also a guardian of cattle. After christianisation Weles became the Devil. Some Slavis sayings refer to the “sins of Weles” or tak form of a curse - “go to the Weles!” – as in go to the Devil, go to hell.


Svarog on the other hand was an ancient god of fire. He was also the god of blacksmiths and sun. The root of the word “swar” is also common in Sanskrit and Iranian words referring to sky or fire. Svarog is probably a variant of a common fire/solar deity which the Slavs shared with the Indo-Aryans and the Iranians. According to some legends Svarog was the father of gods and the main god-creator.


It is interesting to note that the opposition between Svarog and Weles, or light and darkness, has its parallels in the Indo-Aryan worship of Mitra and Waruna, and Iranian worship of Ahuramazda and Aryman.

In Kievan Rus Swarog was also known as Dadźbóg, Dażbóg, or Dabóg. Alternatively Dadźbóg was the son of Swarog. Kievan dukes regarded themselves as “grandsons of Dadźbóg”.


In Polabie, Swarog was known under the name of Swarożyc (which can also mean “son of Svarog”). He was worshipped as the god of fire – incluing sacrifical and house fire. According to a German historian, Thietmar, the temple of Swarożyc was in Radogoszcz, or Radegost:

http://i47.tinypic.com/zjgozs.jpg

…on the territory of the Lutici, or Wieleci – a Slavic confederation of tribes known for their aggression and staunch devotion to paganism. This was the capital fort of the Redari who were a part of Lutici. It was also mentioned by Helmond and Adam of Bremen.


Thietmar wrote:

“There is, in the land of the Redari, a fort triangular in shape and with three gates leading to the inside, called Radogoszcz, surrounded from all sides by a great forest untouched by the natives and worshipped as sacred. Two of the gates are always opened for the people who enter. The third one, from the East side, is the smallest one and opens to a small pathway that leads to a nearby fearsome-looking lake. Within the for there is a single temple, built masterfully from wood and resting on the fundaments made of horns of wild animals. Its inner walls are adorned with the images of pagan gods and goddesses – which are, as one can notice by looking at them closely – sculptured wonderfully, from wood, while inside the chamber there are statues of gods, made by human hand, with helmets and armours – each with his own name engraved. The first one is called Swarożyc, and he is the subject of a particular worship among the pagans. There are also many banners stored in there, which they never take, except for war expeditions, and then they are carried by foot warriors. For protection of all of this, the natives have appointed special priests.”


Polabians:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f0/Polabian_Slavs.png

Radegost:

http://i47.tinypic.com/zjgozs.jpg

/// - Veleti confederation

\\\ - Duchy of the Obodrites


Here is an interesting pdf on Slavic oracles:

http://sms.zrc-sazu.si/pdf/02/SMS_02_Slupecki_Zaroff.pdf

And another one in German:

http://www.folklore.ee/Folklore/vol42/pommern.pdf


Adam of Bremen wrote that the Redari worshipped Radegast/Radogost, which would mean this was another name for Swarożyc. According to Helmond, Radegast was also worshipped by the neighbouring Obodriti. According to the sources, the Slavs kept a white horse in the temple of Swarożyc. This is interesting as horse often symbolised solar deities in other IE religions, like Celts. When the Lutici were defeated by the Saxons and temple burnt down, one of the bishops apparently rode on the sacred horse.


http://www.weltnetzzeitschrift-der-lotse.de/wendgoet.gif

http://www.weltnetzzeitschrift-der-lotse.de/Opfer.gif


http://www.kriegsreisende.de/mittelalter/ma-img/slawen_tempel.jpg

Slavic temple „am Groß Radener See”:

http://www.ferienhaus-herrmann.de/images/fotos/gross_raden/177-7715_600neg.JPG

http://de.academic.ru/pictures/dewiki/115/slawenburg1.jpg

Main Slavic „grads“ and temples:

http://www.feudalismus.de/funde.JPG

/// - Lutici

Polabian, Lechitic Slavs

http://www.slawendorf-brandenburg.info/zentral/slawen.gif

Polabian Tribes:

http://www.timediver.de/img/geschichte/Obodriten/mh_gross_raden1a.jpg


A website on Polabisn Slavs - the Lutici, their history and religion:

http://www.killikus.de/mecklenburgische-schweiz/ivenacker-eichen-ivenack/

Google-translated from German:

The 1000 year old oak trees Ivenacker "of which today is unfortunately still a few of the once proud, include up to 35 meters high, are pedunculate oak view, to Germany's oldest trees, and embody it in an impressive way the living and almost touching story of the Pomeranian History:
Thus the 1000 year old oak trees Ivenacker could report on the Slavic people of the Vilkinamen and its settlement history, about the Christianization of the Cistercian Order, about the Reformation wars and the Thirty Years War and the development of Western Pomerania under the rule of Prussia until modern times. Next to the cathedral of Bad Doberan in Bad Doberan, the ruins of the monastery, the castle Dargun Ivenacker oaks between Demmin and Stavenhagen, one of the most important medieval and at the same time, recent evidence from the history of Western Pomerania. One can certainly assume that in Ivenack many prominent personalities of Mecklenburg-Pomerania history someday have shaken hands.
The "Thousand Oaks" from Ivenack are not the testimony of a forest, but they tell us in a unique way of farming after the settlement by a Slavic tribe in the 8th Century after Christ until the tourist use of the zoo in the modern era of the 21 Century:
After the end of antiquity, which had established in the north German lowlands Rugii together with the Germanic Goths, the time of the Great Migration, the North German plain, and later West Pomerania abandoned in the south to protest the ruling Roman Empire fought populated Slavic tribes from eastern Poland and Ukraine in the 6 - and 7 Century CE, the Germanic abandoned settlements. The settlements of Germanic tribes had been erected for safety reasons mostly on small islands of the north German lakes or in one of the many bogs. These special circumstances make use of the Slavic peoples and enlarged approaching the abandoned settlements of the former Germanic tribes to some well-known locations (spots).
In the 6 - and 7 Century, from the southeast in the North German plain immigrant Slavic peoples are grouped under the concept of the Elbe and the Baltic Slavs or Wends. The most famous northern German Slavic ethnic group which settled on the southern Baltic Sea between Ribnitz Damgarten and Wismar were Obodrites (Abodriti, Obodrites), based at Castle Mikel Castle (Castle Mechel, etc.), the later village of Mecklenburg. In today's Western Pomerania, the settled communities Rani (RUJAN) on Ruegen and Wilzen/Weleti between Demmin (Latin Civitas; städt center), Stavenhagen and continue to spread south. Mittelvorpommern to settle in Brandenburg, the Slavic Liutizen (Lutizen) and east of the Oder Lagoon and on the island of Usedom, the tribe moved to the Pomeranians. The Slavic peoples, whose head was always a Slavic prince who lived with their own language and religion as a common ethnic groups consisting of various family lines. The Slavic tribes lived mainly by the family livestock, hunting and farming. The Wilzen/Veleti successfully operated horse. Apart from the pagan beliefs with various gods and deities, made the Slav raids of any kind, which made them popular, and not in the Germanic empire in the 9th Century with the first military Auseinadersetzungen "Frankish Empire of the German nation," led by Charles the Great (741-814). The Wilzenfürst rex Wiltorum Dragowit [Mettenses priores Annales, ed B. von Simson (MGH SRG X, 1905), ad a. 789; Genealogy Middle Ages.] (Upper king submitted the Vilkinamen), Charles the Great, by surrender in campaign of 789, and the oath of allegiance [Dragowit - Prince of Wilez/Weleti]. Among the most famous northern German battles between the Germans and the Slavs of this time belongs to the Battle of Verchen of 1164 on the northern shore of Lake Kummerow. Regarding the settlement in place of Wilzen/Weleti Ivenack, it is interesting to know that the Ivenacker lake, like many other Slavs locations, has a small island, where there certainly was the headquarters of the Slavic tribe leader of Ivenack.

And an interesting passage on religion of local Slavs:


The religion of the Slavic ethnic groups had different, sometimes mehrköpfige gods and idols that were worshiped as wooden statues in various temples. Such pagan temples were found on the island of Ruegen and in Neubrandenburg am Tollensesee. The princes of the Slavs lived in forts in inaccessible swampy areas or on the islands of large lakes (see Teterower Burgwall island) Burgwall Krakower See. About 955 west of the Slavic Obodrites living in Saxon territory south of the Baltic Sea invaded and raided the city Cocarescemier which are deemed to have somewhere between Plauer and Güstrow. During the Saxon King Otto I (in Hungary fought battle on the Lech), the Slavs killed all adult men and taking women and children as prisoners. The victorious battle of Recknitz (Recknitz at Ribnitz Damgarten) (WIKIPEDIA) by Otto I over the Slavs, followed by a 30-year period of peace and it developed from 968 a lively Christian missionary activity to the Slavs (CONTACT). With the Slavic uprising of 983 ended for the next 200 years the mission of the German Ostsiedlung. 1250/52, at the Cistercian nunnery was built in Ivenack and Slavic Hudewald much in the hands of the monastery Ivenack, which included the area around Ivenack. The mission of the nuns of Ivenack consisted primarily of missions to the Slavs, the spread of the Western religion, agriculture and medicine through herbal care. Fairly quickly arose in the Cistercian Abbey and the Cistercian monastery in Dargun Althof near Bad Doberan.


At Ivenack lake there was apparently the capital of the Lutici or Veleti – one of the strongest Polabian tribes. Veleti were also called Wilzen – after slav. “Wilcy” – meaning “Wolves”. Ivenack and its oaks groves:

http://www.killikus.de/killi/ivenacker-eichen/ivenacker-hutewald.jpg

http://www.killikus.de/killi/ivenacker-eichen/ivenacker-see.jpg

http://www.killikus.de/killi/ivenacker-eichen/ivenacker-eiche-stamm.jpg

http://www.killikus.de/killi/ivenacker-eichen/ivenacker-eiche.jpg

http://www.killikus.de/killi/ivenacker-eichen/ivenacker-eichen.jpg

http://www.killikus.de/killi/ivenacker-eichen/ivenacker-eiche-verfall.jpg


It is interesting that the cult of Swarożyc at the temple of Radegost was by far the key uniting factor bestowing a sense of common identity upon various tribes of Lutici confederation. Swarożyc, like I said, was the god of sun and fire. And also god of war worshipped by the warriors. Cult of Swarożyc was common to all Slavs, and commonly took form of morning prayers to the rising sun.


History of the Veleti confederation:

"... In the late 10th century, the tribes mentioned above formed an alliance known as the Liutizians (also Liutizi, Lyutitzi, or Liutitians; German: Liutizen or Lutizen). The leaders of the Liutizian tribes met at their major stronghold, the fortified temple of Rethra, and decided important matters together. They are believed to have played the key role in the Slavic uprising of 983. However, the alliance fell apart due to internal conflicts in the 1050s; Rethra was raided and destroyed by the Saxons in the winter of 1068/69.

The Kissini and the Circipani were targeted in various attacks from the west, e.g. Saxon raids in 1114 and 1125, and were succeeded by and incorporated into the Obodrite confederacy by Gottschalk.

The Redarier and Tollenser and some Circipani were in part succeeded by the Pomoranians and Poles coming from the east in the 1120s, and in 1147 again invaded by the participants of the Wendish Crusade. The division of the Liutizian lands that took place in the early 12th century is still present in the borderline dividing Mecklenburg, which emerged from the Obodrite state, and Vorpommern to the east.

Territories conquered by the Pommornian duke Wartislav I aided by Polish duke Boleslaw III the Wrymouth became the Duchy of Western Pomernia:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/Pomeraniae_Ducatus_Tabula.jpg


...initially a fiefdom of Poland, later semi-independent and subjected to German Emperor. The Liutizian lands were subject to the Holy Roman Empire until 1164 and, after a period of Danish raids and occupation, settled by Germans in the Ostsiedlung thereafter. The remnants of the Slavic tribes were gradually Germanized and assimilated during the following centuries..."






Svantevit, Świętowit or Światowid was the other chief diety of the Slavic panthenon, symbolised by a swan or a white horse:

http://i49.tinypic.com/30k50ys.jpg

http://www.walhalla.com.pl/sklep/images/swietyIgor.JPG



His main temple was in the famous Arkona, on the island of Rugia inhabited by a seafaring and expansive tribe of Rani:

http://i49.tinypic.com/2a5lpqt.jpg

http://i50.tinypic.com/121bx28.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/314xkxg.jpg

http://i50.tinypic.com/9amvz7.jpg

There was a temple there, erected upon the cliffs of a little peninsula jutting out into the sea and facing the East. More info here:

http://wanclik.free.fr/Svantevit.htm


Saxo Grammaticusa in his Gesta Danorum wrote that the temple contained an enormous statue of an anthropomorphic creature with four faces. In one hand it was holding a horn, which the priest would fill with honey to perform divinations.

Sventovit was also god of war. His main attribute was sword and his symbol, like that of Swarożyc apparently, was a white horse used for fortune telling.


Arkona:

http://www.hramsvetovida.ru/arkonamis.jpg

http://www.arup.cas.cz/airarch_e/v_aru/archiv/arkona.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/00/Kap_Arkona2.jpg/280px-Kap_Arkona2.jpg


http://www.planet-wissen.de/laender_leute/ostsee/ruegen/img/intro_ruegen_arkona_g.jpg

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk28/Gargidget/FriedrichCasparDavid-VuedArkona.jpg

http://insel-ruegen-fewo.com/__oneclick_uploads/2009/09/kap_arkona_-_peilturm_und_burgwall.jpg

http://www.timediver.de/img/geschichte/Obodriten/mh_mecklenburg-vorpommern_ruegen_burgwall.jpg

Other pagan Slavic temples in the vicinity:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a6/Rani_tempels.PNG/300px-Rani_tempels.PNG



Like the temple of Swarożyc in Radogoszcz, the temple of Sventovit in Arkona was wooden. Inside, the walls were adorned with sculptures and paintings. The temple was also a treasury and was guarded by 300 horseman. It was sacked in 1168 by a Christian duke of the Danes - Valdemar I den Store:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Valdemar_den_Store.jpg

…who organized a crusade against pagan Slavs together with bishop Absalon, here supervising the toppling of the statue of Sventovit:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Bishop_Absalon_topples_the_god_Svantevit_at_Arkona .PNG

As a result Rani became vassals of the Danes and were forced to adopt Christianity. Teslav, the duke of the Rani, became a vassal of Valdemar I and gave rise to a local Rugian dynasty.

Jarl
12-21-2009, 05:44 PM
I will try to improve the thread with time. I will also try to limit speculation and "modern pagan" inventions to give readers a minimalistic image, but as cerdible as possible. There are today tendencies to invent stuff, which I totally do not accept. Vague truth is better than a definite beautiful lie.


It is speculataed that Swarog was symbolised by swarga's and swastikas:

http://www.rbi.webd.pl/swarga/_pic/galeria/receboga.jpg

http://www.rbi.webd.pl/swarga/_pic/galeria/receboga_naczynie.jpg

While Perun (by most scholars identified with Polabian Sventovit), god of thunders, by "god's hands":

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/HandsGod.svg/600px-HandsGod.svg.png

http://www.rbi.webd.pl/swarga/_pic/galeria/receboga.gif

Symbols form early Polish pottery:

http://www.rbi.webd.pl/swarga/_pic/galeria/polska08.jpg


Perun was only known from Kievan Rus. It is unknown if Perun and Polabian Sventovit were two forms of the same deity. Out of all the gods listed by the pagan duke of Kiev, Vladimir I, Perun was the main one. He was described as having "silver hair and golden moustache".

However, it is safe to assume that cult of Perun was common through whole Slavdom. Procopius of Cesarea wrote that Slavs worship many gods, but out of them all, the thunder god is the most important and regarded as the ruler of the world to whom sacrifices should be offered from oxen and animals.

Variants of Perun were most likely:

- Polabian Prowe from Wagria

- Polabian Porenut from Rugia (with 5 faces - Saxo Grammaticus)

- Polabian Swentovit (with sword and 4 faces) and Rugewit (with sword and seven faces) both from Rugia (Saxo Grammaticus)



All these deities were said to be of great importance and were symbolised by sword, most likely meaning they were gods of war, and imagined to have several faces - possibly symbolising their omnipotence and power. Apparently sexual contacts in the vicinity of Rugewit's temple were forbidden. Most of these gods were also symbolised by oak tree. Oak tree forests were called "peregynia".

Perun/Sventovit was a Slavic variant of a god of sky and thunders which was symbolised by horse, or axe (topor in Slavic, or tapar in Iranian). In some folklore tales Perun, god of sky and thunders, has to fight Żmij, god of chaos. This clearly reminds the Svarog-Weles antagonism, which I mentioned before. It is well possible that some degree of overlap existed between Svarog and Perun, as well as Weles and Żmij.

Some scholars, like H. Łowmiański, equate Perun with Svarog

Psychonaut
12-21-2009, 06:04 PM
Excellent posts! Do you have any books to recommend on either the original wave of Slavic Pagans or on the modern revival? I've seen quite a bit of good literature on Baltic Paganism (Romuva), but not much on the Slavic.

Jarl
12-21-2009, 06:19 PM
Excellent posts! Do you have any books to recommend on either the original wave of Slavic Pagans or on the modern revival? I've seen quite a bit of good literature on Baltic Paganism (Romuva), but not much on the Slavic.

Unfortunately I do not known any literature in English. Because of scarcity of date, I fear that this subject is a domain of scholars who devote to Slavic studies. Baltic paganism, however, is closely related. Balts also worshipped Perun (which they called Perkun).


Baltic Perkun, like Slavic Perun, was also the main deity, god of thunders, strom, war and fertility, symbolised by oak. He was also the god of morals and fire.



Procopius on Slavic religion:






(VII. 14. 22-30). For these nations, the Sclaveni and the Antae, are not ruled by one man, but they have lived from of old under a democracy, and consequently everything which involves their welfare, whether for good or for ill, is referred to the people.

It is also true that in all other matters, practically speaking, these two barbarian peoples have had from ancient times the same institutions and customs. For they believe that one god, the maker of lightning, is alone lord of all things, and they sacrifice to him cattle and all other victims; but as for fate, they neither know it nor do they in any wise admit that it has any power among men, but whenever death stands close before them, either stricken with sickness or beginning a war, they make a promise that, if they escape, they will straightway make a sacrifice to the god in return for their life; and if they escape, they sacrifice just what they have promised, and consider that their safety has been bought with this same sacrifice.

They rever, however, both rivers and nymphs and some other spirits, and they sacrifice to all these also, and they make their divinations in connection with these sacrifices.

It is not known for certain if human sacrifices were a custom. If they occured, it was rather under exceptional circunmstances as sources are not really clear on this subject.


Also pagan temples are typical only of Polabian Slavs, and it is currently thought they represent a later Medieval development reflecting influence of Christianity. Other Slavs worshipped their deities in sacred groves and opened areas.


In Poland, such sites were often located upon hills, mountains or specially erected mounds like this, "Góra Kraka":

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Kopiec_Krakusa.jpg

On top of it there grew a 300-hundred year oak. Oak was also a cosmological symbol in Slavic religion. Another such site was on the Ślęża (Slenza) mountain in Silesia:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Poland_mount_Sleza_-_ancient_cult_figure.jpg

http://www.glob-bielsko.com.pl/pliki/Image/slezy.jpg


Also on St. Wawrzyniec mountain, and St. Dorota mountain - where subsequently Christian temples were erected.

Cail
12-21-2009, 06:31 PM
Slavic Perun and Baltic Perkūnas are the same deity indeed, Balto-Slavic *Perkwunas. Btw Sanskrit Parjanya, also a good of thunder and lightning, Thracian Περκος, Norse Fjörgynn (Indoeuropean "p" -> "f" in Protogermanic by Germanic consonant shift law) et cetera.

Laudanum
12-21-2009, 06:32 PM
Wow! That's quite a thread my friend.:) I'll go sit down for it tomorrow, take my time and read the entire thing.;)

Jarl
12-21-2009, 06:46 PM
Wow! That's quite a thread my friend.:) I'll go sit down for it tomorrow, take my time and read the entire thing.;)

It is necessary not to take it too categorically. Many tribes could worship same gods under different names. Personally, I think there is a big overlap between Svarog, Polabian-Lechitic Svarożyc and Sventovit from Rugia. Consequently, Svarog seems to be all-Slavic.


Perun was only known from Kievan Rus. Its also the chief deity. And to me it seems he is pretty much the same as Svarog. Just a local Kievan form. The same opinion was expressed by one of the most prominent Polish historians stuying early Slavs - H. Łowmiański. They are represented by the same attributes and both seem to be primarily gods of sky and thunder, as well as sun and fire.


Here I found a fragment on Thietmar description of the temple in Radogoszcz and worship of Swarożyc:

http://books.google.com/books?id=gjq6rvoIRpAC&pg=PT55&lpg=PT55&dq=svarog+thietmar&source=bl&ots=dos8mo-IFh&sig=eaxsBNct40NwVvZvvGG8S83W7Ns&hl=pl&ei=DNAvS63YGMSH4Qbr6qiqCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CA0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=svarog%20thietmar&f=false

Ariets
12-21-2009, 07:02 PM
today we celebrate Szczodre Gody
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Awi%C4%99to_Godowe

Ariets
12-21-2009, 07:05 PM
On top of it there grew a 300-hundred year oak. Oak was also a cosmological symbol in Slavic religion. Another such site was on the Ślęża (Slenza) mountain in Silesia:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Poland_mount_Sleza_-_ancient_cult_figure.jpg
.wasn't that originaly place of cult of Celts (and therefore builded by them)?

Ps. Awesome song in your signature Jarl!

Jarl
12-21-2009, 07:10 PM
wasn't that originaly place of cult of Celts (and therefore builded by them)?

Ps. Awesome song in your signature Jarl!

Slenza was a site of pagan cult since ancient times - Przeworsk culture. So depending on how you perceive this culture it might have been Slavic, Celtic, Germanic or "Venetic". However, recent study of R1a, and R1a1a7 in particular, by Underhill et al. suggests Slavs are autochtonic to the Vistula basin, and Poles are the ones who remained in the urheimat. There is much controversy over this Przeworsk culture however.

I got to know this song by courtesy of The Black Prince aka Frisius. Awesome, I agree ;)

Sarmata
12-21-2009, 08:11 PM
Background


Svantevit, Świętowit or Światowid was the other chief diety of the Slavic panthenon, symbolised by a swan or a white horse:




Are you sure? It's first time when I heard about swan:confused: Original(Polabian) name of Swiętowit(according Bruckner Polish correct transcription) was Svątewit which means "mighty lord". Svantevit it's twisted word from chronicles... which indeed contains word "swan"

Jarl
12-21-2009, 08:16 PM
Are you sure? It's first time when I heard about swan:confused: Original(Polabian) name of Swiętowit(according Bruckner Polish correct transcription) was Svątewit which means "mighty lord". Svantevit it's twisted word from chronicles... which indeed contains word "swan"

Im far from being sure. But that was apparently what the folklore legends on creation myth said. Birds and swans were frequentl symbols of solar, sky deities (Zeus). However, I would be not so certain if they symbolised the main solar deity of Slavs.

I can really trace that info, but it's also mentioned on that French/German website about Arkona:

http://wanclik.free.fr/Svantevit.htm

However it only says that Swan was a symbol of fertility, believed to bring children.

Sarmata
12-21-2009, 08:24 PM
It is necessary not to take it too categorically. Many tribes could worship same gods under different names. Personally, I think there is a big overlap between Svarog, Polabian-Lechitic Svarożyc and Sventovit from Rugia. Consequently, Svarog seems to be all-Slavic.


Perun was only known from Kievan Rus. Its also the chief deity. And to me it seems he is pretty much the same as Svarog. Just a local Kievan form. The same opinion was expressed by one of the most prominent Polish historians stuying early Slavs - H. Łowmiański. They are represented by the same attributes and both seem to be primarily gods of sky and thunder, as well as sun and fire.


Here I found a fragment on Thietmar description of the temple in Radogoszcz and worship of Swarożyc:

http://books.google.com/books?id=gjq6rvoIRpAC&pg=PT55&lpg=PT55&dq=svarog+thietmar&source=bl&ots=dos8mo-IFh&sig=eaxsBNct40NwVvZvvGG8S83W7Ns&hl=pl&ei=DNAvS63YGMSH4Qbr6qiqCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CA0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=svarog%20thietmar&f=false

Perun owe his "popularity" to Waregs who identified him with Thor. I don't remember but it was probably from Nestors chronicles that Waregs members of Dukes army proclaimed oaths by Perun and Slavs by Wolos/Weles. So Perkunas/Perun/Thor was real Pan-European god;)

nisse
12-21-2009, 08:36 PM
On the topic of slavic pagan symbols, have you come across anything like the finnish hannunvaakuna?

http://www.kalevalakoru.fi/instancedata/kalevalakoru/productimages/display/103.jpg

My grandma gave me a pendant with the symbol when I was little, and I am wondering if there is some slavic meaning to it? To date I have only seen it on the cover of Kalevala.

Jarl
12-21-2009, 08:36 PM
Like Łowmianski, I think Perun is an Eastern variety of Svarog, perhaps influenced by Baltic religions.


On the topic of slavic pagan symbols, have you come across anything like the finnish hannunvaakuna?

http://www.kalevalakoru.fi/instancedata/kalevalakoru/productimages/display/103.jpg

My grandma gave me a pendant with the symbol when I was little, and I am wondering if there is some slavic meaning to it? To date I have only seen it on the cover of Kalevala.


No. I have never seen it. And it does not like Slavic patterns/ornaments to me.



Here is Lysa Góra, another Lechitic sacred site, in Polan:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_2QaVmkh5uNg/R-3cHJhsNHI/AAAAAAAAEzM/KsfJHBkAdgQ/s400/Lysa+Gora.jpg

http://www.ferma-norek.info/obrazki/lysagora2.jpg

http://www.beskidmaly.pl/zdjecia/blizniaki.jpg

According to folklore tales, also the site of witches' sabbaths.

Osweo
12-21-2009, 08:49 PM
Excellent posts! Do you have any books to recommend on either the original wave of Slavic Pagans or on the modern revival? I've seen quite a bit of good literature on Baltic Paganism (Romuva), but not much on the Slavic.
There's a good book here for downloading:
http://historic.ru/books/item/f00/s00/z0000031/
http://www.alleng.ru/d/relig/relig042.htm

Whaddyer mean you don't speak Russian?!?! :eek::rolleyes::p:D

It's Rybakov's 'Paganism of the Ancient Slavs'. 1985, the edition I read.

Is it well respected among Slavonicists, I wonder? Do Polish scholars have much to say about his ideas?

He has a lot to say about this, for instance:

Another such site was on the Ślęża (Slenza) mountain in Silesia:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Poland_mount_Sleza_-_ancient_cult_figure.jpg

I was especially taken with the way in which Rybakov involved modern folklore and embroidery traditions in his investigation. Some VERY startlingly long-lived ideas at work.

He has very interesting things to say about tangential subjects too, and the stuff on the Cucuteni Tripolye pottery was well worth reading. He treats Slavonic religion NOT as though isolated from its ethnocultural surroundings, and deals with a lot of Finnic material. I still can't help looking at Ursa Major after reading this book, and thinking 'ЛОСЬ' (Elk)! :)

Jarl
12-21-2009, 08:53 PM
:) Thanks for links! In free time I might translate some of it for those who are interested.

Cail
12-21-2009, 09:07 PM
On the topic of slavic pagan symbols, have you come across anything like the finnish hannunvaakuna?
My grandma gave me a pendant with the symbol when I was little, and I am wondering if there is some slavic meaning to it? To date I have only seen it on the cover of Kalevala.

It might be a Finnish variation of solar symbol, the swastika. Swastika was very popular in all Indo-European cultures, Slavs had used it in decoration as long as XX century (before it gained negative Nazi connotations). This is a XIXc. Russian elderly woman in a traditional dress (check the skirt ornament) -

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/4923/3bcef5eecca5.jpg

Actually solar symbols were popular nearly all over Eurasia, from Japan to Israel (ironically, Swastika symbols were used in Judaism).

Svarog
12-21-2009, 11:07 PM
Are you sure? It's first time when I heard about swan:confused: Original(Polabian) name of Swiętowit(according Bruckner Polish correct transcription) was Svątewit which means "mighty lord". Svantevit it's twisted word from chronicles... which indeed contains word "swan"

I haven't heard of it either but it does not surprise me. Slavic Religion is the least known out of all other European and non-European religions and it had huge differences between different Slavic people. Ignore the language difference, you'll write it Swarog and I'll write it Svarog, the mythology and believes are different, some Gods had different purposes, characteristics etc in different people, some Gods that would exist in Russian believes would not in Serbian, I have came across on major differences between Serbs and Slovenians which are closer than Serbs and Russians are. Folklore is different, customs, rituals, magic, most things, even tho it is one faith it is hard to unite it as one and same for all.

The entire Slavic religion that we know today is based on a theory and semi-reliable sources.

The beauty of Slavic religion is that it gives you endless freedom and a great background to build your believes upon your capabilities and sphere of interest, you have no rules to follow but minor guidelines and endless freedom to express yourself through the religion and it is rare to find. So, even tho the religion itself is not discovered enough, it's still the history, you have everything you need to live your life dedicated to it and follow the road of the ancestors. My parents does, I do, hopefully my kids will etc

Great thread Jarl, thank you.

PS small complain tho, goes to the name of the thread, it's not Paganism, I hate that word, let's leave it to Wiccans and metal bands..

Svarog
12-21-2009, 11:14 PM
It might be a Finnish variation of solar symbol, the swastika. Swastika was very popular in all Indo-European cultures, Slavs had used it in decoration as long as XX century (before it gained negative Nazi connotations). This is a XIXc. Russian elderly woman in a traditional dress (check the skirt ornament) -

Actually solar symbols were popular nearly all over Eurasia, from Japan to Israel (ironically, Swastika symbols were used in Judaism).

http://www.fotorola.com/uploads/90fabae430.gif

Osweo
12-21-2009, 11:33 PM
I haven't heard of it either but it does not surprise me. Slavic Religion is the least known out of all other European and non-European religions and it had huge differences between different Slavic people. Ignore the language difference, you'll write it Swarog and I'll write it Svarog, the mythology and believes are different, some Gods had different purposes, characteristics etc in different people, some Gods that would exist in Russian believes would not in Serbian, I have came across on major differences between Serbs and Slovenians which are closer than Serbs and Russians are. Folklore is different, customs, rituals, magic, most things, even tho it is one faith it is hard to unite it as one and same for all.
You know, the Celtic world seems to have had a similar level of internal variety. One good exploration of this idea - the presence of several different pantheons in a smallish area - is detailed in this paper on Celtic Iberia.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8622

The entire Slavic religion that we know today is based on a theory and semi-reliable sources.
That's it, exactly; too much effort to find the 'true' ultimate version, and dismissing the many true versions that existed in reality.

The beauty of Slavic religion is that it gives you endless freedom and a great background to build your believes upon your capabilities and sphere of interest, you have no rules to follow but minor guidelines and endless freedom to express yourself through the religion and it is rare to find. So, even tho the religion itself is not discovered enough, it's still the history, you have everything you need to live your life dedicated to it and follow the road of the ancestors. My parents does, I do, hopefully my kids will etc
Could I ask you to detail your own personal take on this? Do you actually DO anything, in terms of worship of deities, or is it a much vaguer sort of reverence. I find it easier to empathise with the latter, to be honest.

PS small complain tho, goes to the name of the thread, it's not Paganism, I hate that word, let's leave it to Wiccans and metal bands..
Hehe, quite! Any better ideas?
'Slavic Religion' simply?

Amarantine
12-22-2009, 07:46 AM
Are you sure? It's first time when I heard about swan:confused: Original(Polabian) name of Swiętowit(according Bruckner Polish correct transcription) was Svątewit which means "mighty lord". Svantevit it's twisted word from chronicles... which indeed contains word "swan"

no connections with swan...there is no linguistic connection...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svetovid
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/575935/Svantovit

Have to add, I'm so proud on you Jarl, this is a small research and thank you for this nice thread! We don't know enough about our Paganism, probably cause we "entered" a lot of from our Slavic heritage into Christianity.

http://www.starisloveni.com/English/index.html

Cail
12-22-2009, 08:54 AM
Swentowit - Świętowit - Swiatowid has no connections with swans of course. The root is Slavic *swęt (ę is nasal e), read as "*swent". It is translated as (and is cognate to) "saint" ("holy"). Modern Polish "święt-", modern Russian "swiat-" , modern Czech "swat-". And "-wit" is a Slavic name affix, roughly meaning "lord". Thus, Swentowit is basically "holy lord".

Jarl
12-22-2009, 10:02 AM
A reconstruction of a Slavic temple at Arkona:

http://www.centurion.w8w.pl/Serwis/Polska%20do%20Xw/siwatynia%20w%20Arkonie.jpg

In Radogost (there should be no stone walls and funky spires):

http://slowianie.republika.pl/sj-radogoszcz.jpg

The walls should look more like this (the way Slavic fortifications really looked like):

http://www.zaglowce.ow.pl/typy/slowianie/wolin.jpg

Boats of Pomeranian Lechites:

http://www.zaglowce.ow.pl/typy/slowianie/lodz_orunia.jpg

http://www.zaglowce.ow.pl/typy/slowianie/korab.gif


Światowid:

http://www.gadki.lublin.pl/obrazki/nr6364/poganie__swiatowid%20z%20arkony.jpg

A deity from Wolin island (Światowid?):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/%C5%9Awiatowid_Wolin.jpg

Ariets
12-22-2009, 10:46 AM
Swentowit - Świętowit - Swiatowid has no connections with swans of course. The root is Slavic *swęt (ę is nasal e), read as "*swent". It is translated as (and is cognate to) "saint" ("holy"). Modern Polish "święt-", modern Russian "swiat-" , modern Czech "swat-". And "-wit" is a Slavic name affix, roughly meaning "lord". Thus, Swentowit is basically "holy lord".
Are you sure? I'd say world ruler

*swiat* - world
*wit* - lord

Sarmata
12-22-2009, 03:37 PM
Swentowit - Świętowit - Swiatowid has no connections with swans of course. The root is Slavic *swęt (ę is nasal e), read as "*swent". It is translated as (and is cognate to) "saint" ("holy"). Modern Polish "święt-", modern Russian "swiat-" , modern Czech "swat-". And "-wit" is a Slavic name affix, roughly meaning "lord". Thus, Swentowit is basically "holy lord".

Indeed but old meaning of word "Święt/Svąt" was might/power.

Cail
12-23-2009, 05:19 AM
Are you sure? I'd say world ruler

*swiat* - world
*wit* - lord

Nope, it was *swęnt. "Swiat" is a root form from Russian, where it means "holy" (Polish "swięt-"), while Polish "swiat" (world) in Russian is "swiet".
These two roots (Russian "swiat" and "swiet", Polish "swięnt" and "swiat", Czech "swat" and "swiet") come from common Slavic *swięnt and *swiet, which meant the same as in modern languages ("saint" and "world/light" respectively). Nasalisation is very important here, it denotes remains of IndoEuropean "n" in this word (see "saint")

Cail
12-23-2009, 05:25 AM
Indeed but old meaning of word "Święt/Svąt" was might/power.

Nope. It was only used in this meaning in relation to gods (swiętość), the original meaning is same as it is now ("holy"), see IndoEuropean cognates - "saint", Latin "sanctus", Avestan "spǝnta", Lithuanian "šventas" et cetera, all meaning the same.

Jarl
12-23-2009, 10:12 AM
To make it easier for the readers - the divison of Polabian Lechites:

http://i45.tinypic.com/166cc54.jpg


Yellow - Drzewianie from Wendland, on the left bank of the Elbe. The first one to be conquered and christianised. But ironically the last one to be germanised. Local Polabian went extinct in XVIII century.

"Red" - The Obodriti Union, centralised and ruled by local dukes. They were the earliest Polabian Slavs who came here from the Sukow-Dziedzice culture in Polan in early VI century, and created the local Feldberg culture. A pagan confedertaion which fought against and raided the Danes and Saxons until 1147 when the Polabian Crusade is defeated by the pagan duke Niklot. After his death Obodrites were defeated by Heinrich der Löwe in 1160. They had to accept Christianity and became part of German Empire. Niklot's son, Przybyslaw became the first Christian duke of the Obodrites, giving rise to the House of Mecklenburg, later "Herzogtum Mecklenburg-Schwerin". Their descedants still live today.

Blue - The Veleti Union. Pagan confederation ruled by elders. They came later from Poland in VII century, displacing partly the Oborites, creating the Menkendorf culture. The union fell apart in 1050. Tribes of Kissini and the Circipani were subsequently conquered by the neighbouring Obodrites. However majority were conquered by Polish duke Boleslaw III Wrymouth of the PIast dynasty and Pomeranian Wartislaw I of Gryfici, in 1120s. They subsequently formed a part of the Duchy of Western Pomerania.

Green - The Rani, on the island of Rugia. Were an independent tribe known from its piracy. Pagan and independent was conquered as the last pagan Slavic outpost by the Danes in 1168. It subsequently became part of the Duchy of West Pomerania in 1325.




Most scholars think that Slavs did not develop a single uniform pantheon, but rather worshipped a similar deity - god of war, sun, fire and thunders - under different local variants. Only Swaróg/Swarożyc was known to be worshipped among both the West and the East Slavs - however, only locally.


The temple of Swarożyc in Radegost was by far the main holy site in the whole Lutici federation. Most historian agree that this strong sense of paganism, and one common cult was the key uniting factor among the various tribes that formed the Lutici. What is interesting these tribes were ruled by the elders and only in the event of war they would unite under one leader. The temples were lookad after by a separare class of priests (ministri). The Radegost temple of Swarożyc was most likely the place were Polabian warriors gathered and left for war with their holy banners (vexilla), and where they re-assembled after the war. They holy banners were so important for the Veleti that when they lost one at a river crossing, during an expedition against the Polish duke Boleslaw Chrobry, they wanted to withdraw back to their coutry. The Emperor, whom they were aiding at that time, had to intervene to prevent them from going back.


What about the other gods then??? Helmond said that Światowid was the "god of gods" and most important deity of the Slavs. Światowid was worshipped on the island of Rugia, ni Arkona. The tribe of Rani inhabiting Rugia, were an independent group of sea-faring Polabians. They did not belong to the Veleti/Lutici confederation, nor to the Obodriti - the two main Polabian groups encompassing most of Polabian tribes. It is unthinkable that Światowid was the "god of gods" among the Veleti whose main god was by far "Swarożyc"... unless...both Światowid of the Rani, and Swarożyc of the Veleti, were one and the same deity! There are many analogies here. Both were the key deities and both were gods of war. Both had major wooden temples whose priets would use a white horse for fortune-telling.


Fortune telling from the way a horse would run seems to have been a Polabian, or perhaps Lechitic, Slavic specialty. Thietmar wrote about the way the priets of Swarożyc would tell the future for the Veleti tribes:


"Whispering to each other mysterious words, they dig the soil with trembling, in order to tell the uncertain future from the drawn lots. After the end of the divinations, they bury the lots covering them with turf, and having stuck two crossed spears into the ground, with gestures of humility, they lead through them a horse which they worhsip as the highest sacrum. So having cast the lots, which they had used for fortune-telling before, they now begin the fortune ritual anew using this divine animal. If both these auguries result in the same sign, all the tribes would follow it in their actions, if they do not, with sadness, they resign."


Saxo Gramaticus reported a similar tradition in the temple of Swiatowid, in Arkona. The white horse represented the god and his will. However according to his relation, in Arkona, the horse was used mainly for war fortune-telling. It seems well plausible that these two gods were two variants of the same "god of gods". The connection of Polabian Swarożyc from Radegost, to Swaróg from Kievan Rus is not clear, mainly whether it was his son, or just a Polabian variant of Swarog. There however definitely a real, strong connection between them. Chronicles from Kievan Rus say that Slavs prayed to fire, calling it "Swarożyc". East Slavic Swaróg was mainly a god of fire. It is very possible then that also West Slavic, Polabian Swarożyc was a god of fire (and war like I said before).



Saxo Grammaticus wrote that Światowid from Arkona, was worshipped "with the efforts of whole Slavdom" and that "the neighbouring kings visited him with their offerings. He had also other temples and priests of minor importance [i]". Światowid was the main god of the Ranii, for them as important as Swarożyc for Veleti. Because the Rani were independent I am inclined to believe this was their own version of the key Slavic deity. Here is how Saxo Grammaticus describes Swiatowid:

"The statue was enormous, bigger than a human body, with four heads and as many necks, evoking marvel/amazement. Two of the heads were looking at the chest, and the other two at the back. ... In the right hand he was holding a horn made of stone, which the priest would fill once a year with honey, to tell the future of the forthcoming year from the condition of the drink. The Left hand rested on his side and formed an arch. (...) Nearby there was the birdle and the saddle, and several other symbols of the god. And admiration for them was increased by the presence of a sword of great size, whose scabbard and handle struck with their appearance and excellent craftsmanship."

It is interesting that a similar statue was found in Zbrucz, in Ukraine:

http://www.taraka.pl/foto/reiki_swiatowida_01.jpg

If you look carefully and the sculpture, you will also notice that he is holding a horn, and smong the symbols below the god, there is a horse and sword. It must have been the statue of the same common Slavic deity. If so the Światowid was present among West and East Slavs alike.


Saxo wrote that Świętowid had his own horse, kept in Arkona, just like Swarożyc in Radegost. Additionally Swarożyc had a helmet, and armour. Both were war deities and both were the most important gods in their local communities. This is a strong argument for a common identity. Świętowid was also worshipped during harvests. Fortune telling and feasts would be held at those celebrations. The first part of the name "święty" - might be equated with "powerful", the other part "wit" meant more less "lord".




Polabians and Pomeranians had another deity called Triglav, Trzygłów. It was worshipped in Wolin, Szczecin and Brenna (Brandenburg). It had three faces and its priets would also keep a sacred horse (this time a black one) in the temple, which they used for divinations. The temple was used as treasury. Again - many analogies with Veleti Radegost and Swarożyc, and Rani Arkona and Światowid emerge...




On Rugia, Saxo and Knżtlinga-saga mention also the cult of Rugewit and Porenut. Both has many faces. Rugewit had swords. Perhaps they represent the same deity, but in other "minor temples". They could also be other, minor gods.


More here (in Polish):

http://drax.jogger.pl/files/po%C5%82abscy%20bogowie%20wojny.pdf

Jarl
12-23-2009, 12:34 PM
Anyway. From folklore reconstruction it seems that Slavic creation myth was based upon the dualistic model of fight of light and fire versus darkness. Similar to Indo-Aryan belief in Mitra-Waruna antagonism, and mitraism, and particularly the Iranian religions which developed into mazdaizm, then zoroastrianizm, and finally, as Christian sects, into manicheism and bogomilism.

From folklore it also seems that Slavs might have imagined the universe under the form of an oak tree, or a sacred mountain, with Nawii or Wyraj, land of the dead, at the top or at the bottom. In some tales there are apparently traces of beliefs in reincarnation.

Sarmata
12-25-2009, 07:18 AM
Nope. It was only used in this meaning in relation to gods (swiętość), the original meaning is same as it is now ("holy"), see IndoEuropean cognates - "saint", Latin "sanctus", Avestan "spǝnta", Lithuanian "šventas" et cetera, all meaning the same.

Sorry I can't found nothing in English, it's in Polish:


Jaka jest genealogia słów święto, świętować?
Z przyjemnością przedstawię pochodzenie wymienionych w pytaniu wyrazów. Rzeczownik święto pochodzi od dawnej, tzw. krótkiej, formy przymiotnika święty w rodzaju nijakim. Natomiast sam przymiotnik zarówno w odmianie krótkiej, prostej: świąt, święta, święto, jak i długiej, złożonej: święty, święta, święte jest dziedzictwem prasłowiańskim i występuje we wszystkich językach słowiańskich. Pierwotne, prasłowiańskie znaczenie tego przymiotnika to 'mocny, silny'; zachowało się w przedchrześcijańskich imionach Świętopełk to znaczy 'mający mocne, silne pułki', Świętosław, czyli 'cieszący się dużą sławą'. Znaczenie wtórne ukształtowało się w czasach przyjmowania chrześcijaństwa pod wpływem łac. sanctus, stąd święty to 'mocny duchem, mający moc nadprzyrodzoną'. Ta zmiana znaczeniowa polegała na przejściu od konkretu (tężyzna fizyczna) do abstraktu (siła ducha, charakteru). Później święty oznaczał również 'błogosławiony, pobożny' oraz 'świąteczny, uroczysty', a w użyciu rzeczownikowym 'osoba czczona publicznie i powszechnie, kanonizowana po śmierci'.
Święto to właśnie święty dzień, czyli 'dzień obchodzony uroczyście ze względów kulturowych', a później także innych, np. narodowych, państwowych.
Od rzeczownika święto pochodzi czasownik świętować 'obchodzić święto; spędzać jakiś dzień uroczyście'.
Wyrazów pochodzących od święty, święto jest bardzo dużo, m.in.: przysłówek święcie oraz świętoszek, świętokradca, świątynia, odświętny, świątobliwy, święcić, święcone.
Pozdrawiam świątecznie

— Krystyna Długosz-Kurczabowa, Uniwersytet Warszawski

Cail
12-25-2009, 10:03 AM
Pierwotne, prasłowiańskie znaczenie tego przymiotnika to 'mocny, silny'; zachowało się w przedchrześcijańskich imionach Świętopełk to znaczy 'mający mocne, silne pułki', Świętosław, czyli 'cieszący się dużą sławą'. Znaczenie wtórne ukształtowało się w czasach przyjmowania chrześcijaństwa pod wpływem łac. sanctus, stąd święty to 'mocny duchem, mający moc nadprzyrodzoną'. Ta zmiana znaczeniowa polegała na przejściu od konkretu (tężyzna fizyczna) do abstraktu (siła ducha, charakteru).

I disagree with this. Esp. the idea that the meaning was derived from Christian influence, because this word has the same meaning in ALL Slavic languages, and Slavs were christianized after they've already split to dialects, and such an evolution absolutely could not possibly involve the whole Slavic area from Novgorod to Thessalonica. Also, check, for example, Baltic languages. Lithuanians and Prussians were the last to be christianized in Europe, as late as XIV century - and still have the same meaning of the same Balto-Slavic root - "švent̃as", Old Prussian "swentas". The etymology of Slavic "*swęntŭs" is exactly same as of Latin "sanctus". It might have for some period had that meaning as in the article (mocny, silny), but it was secondary. The primary meaning of this root has not changed since P.Indo-European times. Compare Vedic Sanskrit "cvāntás", Avestan "spǝnta-" et cetera, same.


a w użyciu rzeczownikowym 'osoba czczona publicznie i powszechnie, kanonizowana po śmierci'.
Yes, this meaning is obviously from Christianity (since such a thing hadn't existed prior to it) - "holy" in Christian sense as opposed to "divine"/"miraculous" in Pagan sense.

Amarantine
12-25-2009, 10:12 AM
One of the most beautiful mitologic creatures in Slavic paganism, which was presented in all Slavics.

Žar ptica

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Firebird.jpg

Amarantine
12-25-2009, 10:15 AM
Vile (in english fairies), we had a lot of them:) especially Montenegrins and Serbs like vile...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_fairies

I couldn't find something more representative about Baš Čelik, but we couldn't forget him as a part of our mytology.

Cail
12-25-2009, 10:21 AM
One of the most beautiful mitologic creatures in Slavic paganism, which was presented in all

Actually "Žar Ptica" ("Fire bird") is a fairy-tale derivative of a far darker Slavic mythological creature - the Rarog. It is the fire hawk-demon, associated with hurricanes, dragons, and firestorms. On the other hand, it could bring fortune (hence the fairy tales about fire bird's feather bringing luck et cetera).

Amarantine
12-25-2009, 10:41 AM
Isn't so beautiful that we share so common things...thnks to this thread I am in "so Slavic mood" :)

Jarl
12-25-2009, 01:10 PM
Żar ptaki were apparently living in the crown of the tree that symbolised universe, while its roots was guarded by żmije. These were another sort of demons, and belief in żmije was common to all Slavs. Żmij personified some "heavenly" phenomenons like comets. It was apparently believed to be a guardian and protector of people.

Long earthwork fortifications built by Kievan dukes against steppe nomads were called "wały żmijowe". I wonder if its because of some connection to the demon, or just simply because they were long and "snaking around" the countryside ;)


Żmij or a dragon featured in the coat of arms of one Masovian ducal family from the Piast dynasty (dukes of Czersk):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/44/POL_gmina_Nowy_%C5%BBmigr%C3%B3d_COA.svg/506px-POL_gmina_Nowy_%C5%BBmigr%C3%B3d_COA.svg.png

Amarantine
12-25-2009, 01:48 PM
Żmij or a dragon featured in the coat of arms of one Masovian ducal family from the Piast dynasty (dukes of Czersk):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/44/POL_gmina_Nowy_%C5%BBmigr%C3%B3d_COA.svg/506px-POL_gmina_Nowy_%C5%BBmigr%C3%B3d_COA.svg.png

hmmmm looks like Dragon which was-is in used in Wales.

nisse
12-25-2009, 02:03 PM
Some of my favourite mythical creatures are берегині/русалки..although I like many mythological creatures (I don't like the scary ones...although there are any of those).

Most of my knowledge about Slavic mythology is from ethnographic studies that I've looked at over the years, and some is from books such as "Вечера на хуторе близ Диканики", which I enjoyed immensely both because it's about the area I'm from and because of the folkloric element...I have to say, I much preferred reading it to reading ethnography textbooks :embarrassed...just wish there'd be more books like that.

Cail
12-25-2009, 04:04 PM
Long earthwork fortifications built by Kievan dukes against steppe nomads were called "wały żmijowe". I wonder if its because of some connection to the demon, or just simply because they were long and "snaking around" the countryside ;)

Russian source -


Nazwanije "Zmijev Wał" proischodzit ot narodnych legend o starodawnich bohaterach, kotory usmierziły i zaprzagły Zmija (alegoria koczewnikow atakujucych Ruś) w gigantski pług i propaсhały brazdu dla oborony ot stepi.


(Don't think translation is necessary).

Osweo
12-26-2009, 12:15 AM
(Don't think translation is necessary).
Of course not, but for fun :p (and nemtsy in the general sense ;)):


The name 'The Serpent's Bank/Dyke' originates from a folk legend of ancient warriors having tamed and yoked the Serpent (an alegory of the nomads who attacked Rus) into a giant plough and used him to plough this great furrow of earth to protect their lands from the Steppe.

This isn't from the Rybakov source I linked to, is it? He had a lot to say about this same idea. :)


{By the way, I'd call the beast on the Masowian family's crest a 'Wyvern'. The County of Somerset has a similar creature on its own flag. The difference with the Welsh Draig Goch is the number of legs.}

Jarl
12-26-2009, 01:16 PM
Slavs had a very strong cult of ancestors. Kosmas from Prague mentions in his "Chronica Boėmorum" that Slavs built little "soul houses" for their deceased ancestros.

Slavs often buried the ashes of their ancestors in a clay pot within little earth mound, which they called "mogiła" (now a synonym for "grave"). They would pray and make sacrifices at the grave, and burn fires in memory of the dead. These prayers would be accompanied by a feast called stypa, strawa, or tryzna, and sometimes competitions.

Today this custom turned into Christian "zaduszki" on the 1st of November.

http://www.antoranz.net/CURIOSA/ZBIOR4/C0411/02-QZD03077_zaduszki4.jpg

http://www.pinakoteka.zascianek.pl/Pruszkowski_W/Images/Zaduszki.jpg

http://sowa.website.pl/cmentarium/Historia/Zaduszki01.jpg

http://www.starepowazki.sowa.website.pl/Historia/Zaduszki01.jpg

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/2378376.jpg

http://img.national-geographic.pl/images/0911/pics/DSC01818_a5a2d28d44.jpg

People here still visit the dead to pray for them. Same custom is alive in all Slavic countries, I think. Slavonic version of Haloween ;)

Ariets
12-26-2009, 06:27 PM
Known before as Dziady:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dziady
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/82/2009dzi003.jpg/800px-2009dzi003.jpg

Amarantine
12-28-2009, 06:42 AM
Slavs had a very strong cult of ancestors. Kosmas from Prague mentions in his "Chronica Boėmorum" that Slavs built little "soul houses" for their deceased ancestros.


Today this custom turned into Christian "zaduszki" on the 1st of November.


People here still visit the dead to pray for them. Same custom is alive in all Slavic countries, I think. Slavonic version of Haloween ;)


Slavic...please, not Slavonic.
Of course, South Slavs have "zadušnice" also (even the word is similar with Polish, I wonder which word is in use in Russian...). We have two "zadušnice" in winter period and in summer period, I don't know the exact dates. Probably for Orthodox 13 days after Catholics.

Cail
12-28-2009, 09:30 AM
[Of course, South Slavs have "zadušnice" also (even the word is similar with Polish, I wonder which word is in use in Russian...).
Same as in Polish - zaduški. But as of late it got predominantely replaced by conventional Halloween - it was frowned upon in the times of communistic atheism and thus became unpopular. And when the communism fell, Russians adopted western Halloween instead.

Jarl
12-28-2009, 10:42 AM
[COLOR=purple]Slavic...please, not Slavonic.

:) Why? Is there any difference???


Of course, South Slavs have "zadušnice" also (even the word is similar with Polish, I wonder which word is in use in Russian...). We have two "zadušnice" in winter period and in summer period, I don't know the exact dates. Probably for Orthodox 13 days after Catholics.

Could you post some pics of Serbian zadusnice here?

Amarantine
12-29-2009, 08:33 AM
:) Why? Is there any difference???

Of course there is, a long time ago I had discussion about it with Osweo, but he didn't understand. It is very importnat linguistc difference which could have wrong interpretation. We should repsect our original terms not to use what is easier or what is worse what is irrelevant for english but for us Slavics is important.

Slavonic this term is absolutly wrong. Slavonia is part of Croatia and there is no Slavonic Church or Old Slavonic Church (even if this term is in use in Brittanica, that don't mean in the same time that is correct, Brittanica is not a Bible!).

Old Slavic, Slavic is correct (in correspondance with original or similar in our languages-Staroslavenski, Slavenski, Slavjanski, Staroslovenski, slovenski, etc).




Could you post some pics of Serbian zadusnice here?


Of course I can, but just one from the Montenegro, because I am not Serbian:coffee:

Well, there is no major differnece between yours and ours zadushnice, people lights candlles to their passed ancestors in the Churches or on the graves. It is not just kind of celebration for us, it is deeply intimate (private) thing. It is not some kind of silly party.

http://www.spc.rs/Vesti-2006/11/zadusnice1-v.jpg

http://www.smedia.rs/vesti/slike/thumbs_mini_news_19249.jpg http://www.vesti.rs/downloads/0d443079959c9465f97a3d172a5be995.jpg

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_EyFXl7_Czgg/SdEleoYsd1I/AAAAAAAAIhQ/FKQ5PTU73Ak/s720/IMG_0034%20(Custom).jpg

Osweo
12-29-2009, 09:12 PM
Of course there is, a long time ago I had discussion about it with Osweo, but he didn't understand. It is very importnat linguistc difference which could have wrong interpretation. We should repsect our original terms not to use what is easier or what is worse what is irrelevant for english but for us Slavics is important.
I still insist you are fundamentally mistaken here!

Slavonic this term is absolutly wrong. Slavonia is part of Croatia and there is no Slavonic Church or Old Slavonic Church (even if this term is in use in Brittanica, that don't mean in the same time that is correct, Brittanica is not a Bible!).
Not ALL of Slavonia is in Croatia, my dear! :eek::wink
Okay... There's a region called Slavonija. The adjective in English is thus 'Slavonian', NOT 'SLAVONIC', which by its '-ic' ending CLEARLY refers to something more general, linguistic and ethnological. NOBODY would think that Slavonic refers to that region between the Sava and Drava.

Staroslavenski is always translated as 'Old Church Slavonic'. Kirill and Mefodii themselves would have approved of this commonsensical approach, I assure you!

Old Slavic, Slavic is correct (in correspondance with original or similar in our languages-Staroslavenski, Slavenski, Slavjanski, Staroslovenski, slovenski, etc).
EXACTLY, NOT Staroslavski, Slavski or Slovski!!
The original word was Slovene. To make a neo-Greek work out of this would give us Slovenic, which we do not have, but for which we have a related form 'Slavonic', based on an old Greek version of Slovene.

And aesthetically, 'Slavonic' sounds much nicer! :p

Cail
12-29-2009, 11:07 PM
The original word was, actually, Slovѣnьsk (Slověnĭsk).

Amarantine
12-30-2009, 08:30 AM
I still insist you are fundamentally mistaken here!

Not ALL of Slavonia is in Croatia, my dear! :eek::wink
Okay... There's a region called Slavonija. The adjective in English is thus 'Slavonian', NOT 'SLAVONIC', which by its '-ic' ending CLEARLY refers to something more general, linguistic and ethnological. NOBODY would think that Slavonic refers to that region between the Sava and Drava.

Staroslavenski is always translated as 'Old Church Slavonic'. Kirill and Mefodii themselves would have approved of this commonsensical approach, I assure you!

EXACTLY, NOT Staroslavski, Slavski or Slovski!!
The original word was Slovene. To make a neo-Greek work out of this would give us Slovenic, which we do not have, but for which we have a related form 'Slavonic', based on an old Greek version of Slovene.

And aesthetically, 'Slavonic' sounds much nicer! :p

Well, dear Osweo, I really like you, you are one cute and nice guy, but! all above is just a pure nonsence (read crap).

Please forgive me, but I have to tell you a truth.

And please, Kiril and Metodije would turn in their graves if they could read your silly remarks.

Osweo
12-30-2009, 09:37 PM
Well, dear Osweo, I really like you, you are one cute and nice guy, but! all above is just a pure nonsence (read crap).
Амарантина, тебя ЛЮБИМ, but I could almost strangle you for this!!!! :D

And please, Kiril and Metodije would turn in their graves if they could read your silly remarks.
:nono:
I hope you and I get to meet the Апостоли Славян one day, to really hear this 'from the horse's mouth'... :cheers2:

Lithium
03-18-2010, 06:43 AM
I always thought, that the mogilas (могили) are thracian graves. I'd seen few of them and they look really amazing, from their top you can see the whole valley (as example). :]

Lithium
03-18-2010, 06:45 AM
and what about the samodivas (самодиви) I dont see them in the wiki thread for Slavic fairies?

Amarantine
03-18-2010, 07:51 AM
and what about the samodivas (самодиви) I dont see them in the wiki thread for Slavic fairies?

We call them šumske vile...forest fairies...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samodiva

Jarl
06-22-2010, 08:48 PM
Slavic religion and Irano-Aryan beliefs - common lexical base:



God - Bog


http://resurrectionwillows.tripod.com/PaganSlavs.html

The pre-Christian Slavs shared much of their religion in its major aspects with that of the other Indo-European peoples. Their gods derived from common origins and displayed characteristics in unity with the other Indo-European religions. The very word for a god (bog) came from the Iranian language.

Or perhaps "Bog" from a common shared root.



Paradise - Raj


In a series of Belorussian songs a divine figure enters the homes of the peasants in four forms in order to bring them abundance. These forms are: bog (“god”); sporysh, anciently an edible herb, today a stalk of grain with two ears, a symbol of abundance; ray (“paradise”); and dobro (“the good”). The word bog is an Indo-Iranian word signifying riches, abundance, and good fortune. Sporysh symbolizes the same concept. In Iranian ray has a similar meaning, which it probably also had in Slavic languages before it acquired the Christian meaning of paradise. Bog, meaning “riches,” connotes ..


Holy - Svent:


A major Slavic god whose four heads apparently represented the four directions and the four seasons was Svantovit (Sventovit, Swiantowid), who may be a western version of the eastern Slavonic high god Svarog. In some places two of the god's heads are male, two female. Svantovit is at once a god of war and of fertility. Like many Slavic gods he has direct Iranian antecedents, as indicated by the root svent, which has connections with the ideas of both strength and holiness in the Iranian language.

Slavic and Indo-Iranian Religious Links


Throughout Jakobson's mythological analyses, it appears that one oft-appearing thread is that of a link between Slavic and Iranian pantheons and practices. According to Jakobson, "[t]he proximity in the religious pattern and terminology finds its expression both in the features which they preserved jointly from the Indo-European heritage or which they modified in one and the same way. In some cases where we are authorized to presume a direct borrowing, the direction is from Iranian to Slavic" (4).

In both Iranian and Slavic religious terminology, the Indo-European name for the worshipped sky is substituted with the name of the cloud, the derivative used to signify gods is converted to the term for "hostile demonic being", a word formerly denoting wealth and its giver is converted to the general usage as "god", and the Indo-European term for "human being" (associated with the term for earth) was removed from both (4-5, 15).

Words that are identical or similar in both religious systems include the words for holy, divination, proclamation, drawing, chastising, fearing, protecting, "word" and deed, fire, chalice, burial mound, cure, healthy, sick, evil, shame, guilt, sinister, and paradise (5). The words "consist partly of direct borrowings and partly of primordial Indo-European words that underwent an Iranian modification in their meanings" (14). Jakobson summarizes by saying that, "[t]he closeness of the religious vocabulary to the Iranian, exposing the communality of both faith and ritual, also finds a striking parallel in the names and functions of individual gods" (15). It is to these individual gods that our focus now shifts, where linguistic analyses indicate links with Iranian and many other religions.



The paralleles obviously concern the cult of the main solar/fire deity in both Slavs and Indo-Aryans: Swarog.



Svarog: God of Fire
The Slavic god Svarog has a number of attributes, many of which appear to be related to creation in some form or another, though others are associated with destruction. For instance, Kievan bookmen identified him with the fire god Hephaestus and name him as the "first to forge weapons... and [call] the kingly sun 'Svarog's son'" (26).

Jakobson cites Czech and Slovak beliefs concerning a related demonic being, saying that "it is at once generous and vindictive, an unusually mobile spirit who assumes the shape of birds, animals, and dragons, and who is closely linked to the fire on the hearth; its body sparkles, its hair blazes, a radiance emerges from its mouth. It flies through the chimney and is carried off by the night in a fiery swirl or is transformed into a whirlwind" (27). He also draws strong parallels with the Iranian Varagna and its variants, listing further associations with the "wind, gold-horned aurochs, horse, boar-as well as his close ties with fire and smithery... [and] virility." (7).

As with Perun and Veles, Jakobson lists many Indo-European linguistic relatives of Svarog. These include the Rumanian sfaróg, Czech and Slovak Rarog, Rarach, and Jarog, the Indic Vrtrahan, the Armenian Vahagn, the Croatian rarov, the Lithuanian rąragas or vanagas. In particular, he notes that, "[t]o all appearances svarog' originates from the same Middle Iranian form varhagn. It is significant that precisely the seventh of the nine metamorphoses of the god-like Vereθraγna was his transformation into the mighty, fast-flying falcon vareγna... In all likelihood, besides the direct name of the Iranian hero (varhaγn), his similar-sounding, figurative appellation (varhaγn) in turn influenced the Slavic transmission" (28). Thus, whereas Perun and Veles seemed to reflect a more common Indo-European linguistic root, Svarog seems to be from a more clearly Iranian source.



Dzadzbog:



Dažbog would be "giving god", "god-giver, "god-donor". The close related word to slavic Dažd is in Avestian or east-Iranian language - dazdā, dazda "gifts" [1]. This is particularly interesting since the Proto-Slavic word for god, *bagu (> Common Slavic *bogъ), the suffix of Dažbog's name, is argued either to be of Iranian origin (being related to Indo-Iranian etymons such as Old Persian baga, Sanskrit bhaga), or being semantically influenced by Iranian source, both being ultimately derived from PIE root *bʰag-, whose reflexes in both Slavic and Indo-Iranian came to mean both "deity" and "wealth, share"[2]. Thus, translated literally, Dažbog would be "giver of fortune".




The connection of the mythological name Svarog with the Iranian models and the simultaneous semantic similarity make it possible to widen the already striking inventory of Slavic-Iranian correspondences in religious vocabulary.


http://i47.tinypic.com/spbqc3.jpg


Svarog stems from the same root swar/chwar which meant in Slavic and Irano-Aryan (Avestan, Scythian, Sogdian, Sanskrit) brightness or fire.
Main deities of Zoroastrianism and Mitraism were deities of sun and fire - Ormuzd and Mitra. In Slavic religion Swarog was a solar deitry and the god of fire. Also the word Swarga means heaven in Hinduism - the concept of Swarga (heaven) is one of the concepts of Hindu mythology. Hinduism deems swarga a temporary place to enjoy the fruits of ones actions on earth...

There is a clear functional and lexical connection between Slavic and Iranian god of fire. 1000s years ago common ancestors of Slavs and Irano-Aryans must have worshipped a common deity of fire and heavens, creator of the world, which later evolved into Svarog, Ormuzd (Ahura Mazda), as well as Mitra.

The strong light-darkness, good-evil dualism of Slavic and Irano-Aryan religions:

http://i48.tinypic.com/33y48zn.jpg



On Slavic Indo-Aryan parallels:

http://www.iacm.bravehost.com/Yanchevskaya_Indo_Slavica.pdf

Cail
06-23-2010, 12:11 AM
This article touches an interesting topic, but the data is doubtful, sometimes outright bullshit. Most of these are just Pan-Indo-European things, not solely Slavic and Indo-Iranian.


Like many Slavic gods he has direct Iranian antecedents, as indicated by the root svent, which has connections with the ideas of both strength and holiness in the Iranian language.

This is the same root as in English "saint" or Latin "sanctus".


The paralleles obviously concern the cult of the main solar/fire deity in both Slavs and Indo-Aryans: Swarog... Svarog stems from the same root swar/chwar which meant in Slavic and Irano-Aryan (Avestan, Scythian, Sogdian, Sanskrit) brightness or fire.
This is an obvious mistake, Swarog is a sky deity mostly. Svárgas is just "sky" in Sanskrit, later assuming the meaning of heaven (in the sky). There are cognates, for example Anglo-Saxon sweorc ("cloud"), Dutch zwerk et cetera. That root never had fire-related meanings.


Dažbog would be "giving god", "god-giver, "god-donor". The close related word to slavic Dažd is in Avestian or east-Iranian language - dazdā, dazda "gifts"
That's not exclusive for Slavic - Indo-Iranian either . Compare Celtic "dagda", save.


Et cetera. In any case, there was no exclusive genetic relations between Slavic and Indo-Iranian, they belong to completely different branches of I-E. There are many loans though, undoubtedly.

Jarl
06-23-2010, 12:16 AM
Et cetera. In any case, there was no exclusive genetic relations between Slavic and Indo-Iranian, they belong to completely different branches of I-E. There are many loans though, undoubtedly.


The number of loanwords in spiritual/religious terminology is quite high. The ebook I quoted lists a dozen or so. In addition to that you have some strikingly similar meanings and concepts Swarog - god of sun, sky, and Swarga - heaven. Central cult of a solar deity and fire. Doesn't it imply a genetic raltionship?



This is an obvious mistake, Swarog is a sky deity mostly. Svárgas is just "sky" in Sanskrit, later assuming the meaning of heaven (in the sky). There are cognates, for example Anglo-Saxon sweorc ("cloud"), Dutch zwerk et cetera. That root never had fire-related meanings.


The meaning is still similar in Sanskrit. I referred to Avestan and Sogdian:


pokrewieństwie wyrazu svarogъ ze scytyjskim (sogdyjskim) *°spąr°γ- [3] - błyszczeć, świecić się, kwitnąć [1], a dalej z irańskim (awestyjskim) chvar - światło nieba [2], słońce, oraz ze staroindyjskim svąr - blask, niebo, słońce.


The root of the word might be the same in other IE language (and why shouldnt it be?), but what I meant is that in Slavic and Aryan religion it retained its spiritual meaning. The sole fact Swarog is a solar deity of the Slavs and Swarga is used for a Hindu "heaven" is a striking parallel. What about bog and raj?



What do you mean they belong to "completely" different IE branches? They both belong to the Satem branch and share a recent common paternal ancestry. In this way, the Balto-Slavic branch is much closer to Irano-Aryan, than to Germanic or Celto-Italic for instance.

Cail
06-23-2010, 10:17 AM
--Statement: in case someone is not familiar with linguistical terminology, "genetic relation" does not mean relation by blood of respective speakers, but a genetic relation of languages themselves (languages descending from a common proto-dialect). I thought there might arise some misunderstandings from this.--


What do you mean they belong to "completely" different IE branches? They both belong to the Satem branch and share a recent common paternal ancestry.
Satem is not a branch, but an isogloss. It's an areal, not a genetic feature. The idea of two separate "Satem" and "Centum" branches is long since outdated, modern linguistics says that there is a process of Satemisation that occurs independently (or as an areal thing) to I-E. languages. Satemisations have been observed in historical time too.

For example, Latin is a Centum language (in fact, the very definition of Centum), but modern Italian is Satem, and the first hints of Satemisation can be seen already in the Late Vulgar Latin. Also, Germanic languages in general are Centum, and so was the Anglo-Saxon, while modern English is strongly Satemised (it is said that complete Satemisation was stopped by the advance of literary norms).


In this way, the Balto-Slavic branch is much closer to Irano-Aryan, than to Germanic or Celto-Italic for instance.
"In this way" means that they share some areal features and influenced each other. The same as, for example, modern Romanian, as a part of Balkanic Sprachbund, shares quite a few areal features with, for example, Greek (or Bulgarian, Albanian etc), and numerous loans, but genetically they are not particularly related (outside I-E. grouping).

Balto-Slavic is a part of North-Western IE branch (Germano-Balto-Slavic, possibly also Thracian and Illyrian belong here), next closest relation is South-Western (Italic and Celtic). Indo-Iranian belongs to the Eastern IE branch, together with Armenian and Greek (and some other extinct languages, like Phrygian etc). Armeno-Graeco-Aryan connection is quite strong, earliest examples of archaic Greek and contemporary Avestan and Sanskrit still bear strong resemblance.


What about bog and raj?
Raj is most likely a direct loan from ancient Iranian, virtually unchanged in its form (avest. rā́у). Slavic development of this I-E. root would've been different. "Bog" is not, it's a true cognate. But this does not indicate any particular relation. I can name you dozens of exclusive cognates between any two I-E. sub-branches. Cognates are preservation of common I-E. legacy, while the genetic relation (development from a common proto-dialect) is decided by common innovations. Of these, Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian share none, except for significantly later mutual influences.



The number of loanwords in spiritual/religious terminology is quite high. The ebook I quoted lists a dozen or so. In addition to that you have some strikingly similar meanings and concepts Swarog - god of sun, sky, and Swarga - heaven. Central cult of a solar deity and fire. Doesn't it imply a genetic raltionship?
Nope, it doesn't. Religion and cult are loaned very easily, needless to say (all of modern Europe following a Semitic deity...). Though it's likely not the case here, these meanings are unrelated at all.

Again, Svarog was not a Solar god, or a god of fire. You're mistaking him for Svarožič, another name of Dažbog (who is Svarog's son). Dažbog is a solar/fire deity, while Svarog is a sky god, his name obviously showing this (I-E. root for sky).

While Indo-Iranian svarga (heaven) is just "sky" assumming the role of heaven. It's a very natural development, for example modern Christians also often use this metaphor.

These two meanings are actually unrelated. Ok, for example, imagine that there would be a Sky god with the name "Niebiesny". At the same time, followers of a different religion refer to their heavens as "niebiosa" (as they actually do now). The name of the god and the word for heavens are obviously related, but are not related semantically. One is an assumption of "domain power" as a name, the other is a metaphor (sky=heaven). And this root is not exclusive to B-S. and I-I. either, there are cognates in old Germanic languages for example.


And the central Sky god himself is a very common I-E. feature, nearly all Indoeuropeans have him. Zeus and Jupiter being the most well known examples.

Cail
06-23-2010, 10:23 AM
share a recent common paternal ancestry
This is in no way an indication of common linguistical/cultural ancestry. For example, this same R1a is strongly prevalent among Kyrgyz, Uighur et cetera, who otherwise share nothing with Balto-Slavs or Hindus.

American Negroes are predominantly African paternally, but Germanic linguistically and follow a Semitic religion.

Jarl
06-23-2010, 06:55 PM
This is in no way an indication of common linguistical/cultural ancestry. For example, this same R1a is strongly prevalent among Kyrgyz, Uighur et cetera, who otherwise share nothing with Balto-Slavs or Hindus.

American Negroes are predominantly African paternally, but Germanic linguistically and follow a Semitic religion.


But I am not really saying anything of myself. I am just quoting the book which says Slavic religion was close to Iranian. That's all. I don't think they sucked it out of nowhere coz the argument of early Iranian influence over Slavic religion is quite predominant in Polish literature on the subject.



This is in no way an indication of common linguistical/cultural ancestry. For example, this same R1a is strongly prevalent among Kyrgyz, Uighur et cetera, who otherwise share nothing with Balto-Slavs or Hindus.

American Negroes are predominantly African paternally, but Germanic linguistically and follow a Semitic religion.

Genetic affinity indeed is a better indication of linguistic affinity than the lack of it. Particularly in patriarchal societies. Of course the culture of Indo-Iranians is essentially that of steppe herders not farmers, however does this in some way undermine the fact that there are lexical parallels between Slavic and Iranian religions?


Nope, it doesn't. Religion and cult are loaned very easily, needless to say (all of modern Europe following a Semitic deity...). Though it's likely not the case here, these meanings are unrelated at all.

Again, Svarog was not a Solar god, or a god of fire. You're mistaking him for Svarožič, another name of Dažbog (who is Svarog's son). Dažbog is a solar/fire deity, while Svarog is a sky god, his name obviously showing this (I-E. root for sky).

While Indo-Iranian svarga (heaven) is just "sky" assumming the role of heaven. It's a very natural development, for example modern Christians also often use this metaphor.

First of all I do not think that the precise functions of Swarog and Swarozyc - or their relation, have been ever well documented. In fact they both can represent the same deity from two ends of Slavdom. Why you assume Swarog =/= Swarozyc?

Secondly, if Swar means heavens then dont you contradict yourself a bit saying his original function/meaning was that of fire?



These two meanings are actually unrelated. Ok, for example, imagine that there would be a Sky god with the name "Niebiesny". At the same time, followers of a different religion refer to their heavens as "niebiosa" (as they actually do now). The name of the god and the word for heavens are obviously related, but are not related semantically. One is an assumption of "domain power" as a name, the other is a metaphor (sky=heaven). And this root is not exclusive to B-S. and I-I. either, there are cognates in old Germanic languages for example.


And the central Sky god himself is a very common I-E. feature, nearly all Indoeuropeans have him. Zeus and Jupiter being the most well known examples.

Anyway I am not certain what you meant... If I understood correctly then Swarga and Swarog are two words with "unrelated meaning". Is this what you are trying to say? If so then you deny the Swarog-Swarga parallel.



Raj is most likely a direct loan from ancient Iranian, virtually unchanged in its form (avest. rā́у). Slavic development of this I-E. root would've been different. "Bog" is not, it's a true cognate. But this does not indicate any particular relation. I can name you dozens of exclusive cognates between any two I-E. sub-branches. Cognates are preservation of common I-E. legacy, while the genetic relation (development from a common proto-dialect) is decided by common innovations. Of these, Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian share none, except for significantly later mutual influences.

Well then if raj is a loanword then there was some common base in the spirituality of those people. Here is the list of iranian loanwords collected from some literature by one Polish amateur:


Zapożyczeń irańskich jest przypuszczalnie sporo. Za takowe uchodzą przede wszystkim terminy związane z religią:

•*bogъ ‘bóg’ (por. aw. baγa ‘pan, bóg’ wobec skr. bhagas ‘dostatek, szczęście’, bhajate ‘rozdziela’, gr. phageĩn ‘jeść, pożerać’);
•*divъ ‘dziw’ (por. aw. daēva ‘zła istota, demon’ wobec skr. devas ‘bóg’, łac. deus, litew. diẽvas itd.);
•*gatati ‘wróżyć, przepowiadać, gadać’ (por. aw. gāθā ‘hymn religijny’; stąd też *gaslo ‘hasło’);
•*mogyla ‘mogiła’ (por. aw. maγa ‘szczelina w ziemi, jama’);
•*nebo ‘niebo’ (por. aw. nabah ‘niebo, atmosfera’ wobec skr. nabhas ‘mgła, obłok’, gr. néphos ‘chmura’);
•*rajь ‘raj’ (por. aw. rāy ‘bogactwo, szczęście’);
•*svętъ ‘święty’ (por. aw. spənta ‘święty’, wedyj. śvāntįs ‘pomyślny’);
•*vatra ‘watra, święty ogień’ (por. aw. ātar ‘ogień’, skr. įtharvā ‘czciciel ognia’);
•*zъlъ ‘zły’ (por. oset. ęwzęr ‘zły’, aw. zūrah ‘niesprawiedliwość’, skr. hvalati ‘potyka się, zatacza się’);
a także:

•*aščerъ ‘jaszczur’ (być może ze słowa spokrewnionego z perskim aždār ‘smok’, aw. ažiš dahāka, por. tutaj);
•*čaša ‘półkolista miseczka, czasza’ (por. skr. caṣakas ‘kubek’; prawdopodobnie jednak odziedziczone z *kēusjā);
•*gunja ‘sukno, odzież z sukna, siermięga, gunia’ (oset. γun ‘wełna’, stper. gaunyā ‘kolorowa’, aw. gaōna ‘włos, maść, kolor’);
•*gъpanъ, *žьpanъ ‘pan’ (stczes. hpįn; stper. *gu-pāna ‘nadzorca bydła’, sarmackie ‘zastępca władcy’);
•*kotъ, *kotьcь ‘kojec, drewniane pomieszczenie dla zwierząt’ (por. aw. kata- ‘jama, piwnica’, npers. kad ‘dom’, por. *xata);
•*patriti ‘patrzyć’ (aw. pāθrāy ‘chronić’; wyraz ten może być też odziedziczony, por. niem. Futter ‘pasza’, sgn. fuotar, orm. haurįn ‘stado’);
•*radi ‘dla’ (por. ros. ради oraz stpers. rādiy, poimek o tym samym znaczeniu, pokrewne skr. rādhas ‘łaska, błogosławieństwo’);
•*slovo ‘słowo, opowieść’ (por. aw. sravah ‘słowo, nauka’ wobec znaczenia ‘sława’ w innych językach, jak skr. śravas, gr. kléos);
•*sobaka ‘pies’ (por. aw. spaka, śr.-irań. *sabāka, pokrewne skr. śvā, dop. śunas, gr. kżōn, dop. kynós; por. etymologia turkijska);
•*sormъ ‘srom, wstyd’ (por. aw. fšarəma ‘wstyd’ wobec znaczeń stisl. harmr, sgn. har(a)m ‘troska, zmartwienie, szkoda, uraz’, łot. sērmelis ‘strach’, podobno także litew. šarmą ‘szron’);
•*soxa ‘socha, gałąź, podpora’ (por. npers. šāχ, skr. śākhā; o zapożyczeniu miałoby świadczyć -x-; por. też sgn. suohha ‘socha’);
•*šьdlъ ‘szedł’, por. niżej *xoditi;
•*toporъ ‘topór’ (por. stirań. *tapara, nper. teber);
•*xata ‘chata’ (por. aw. kata ‘dom, jama’, być może raczej z substratu przedindoeuropejskiego lub z ugrofińskiego);
•*xoditi ‘chodzić’ (nieobjaśnione x-; poza tym IE *sod-, skąd gr. hódos ‘droga’, zgodnie z regułą Wintera powinno dać w słow. **sad-);
•*xorna ‘zboże, pożywienie, ochrona’ (bułg. xorna ‘zboże’, por. aw. xvarəna ‘żywność’);
•*xvostъ ‘chwost, ogon, bicz’ (por. aw. xvasta ‘młócony’);
•*xъmelь ‘chmiel’ (por. aw. haōma, skr. soma ‘napój ofiarny’; bardziej prawdopodobna etymologia turkijska).


First part contains quite a few loanwords referring to the spirituality. He also names few similarities in grammar between Ossetian and Slavic:


Na historyczne związki słowiańsko-alańskie (sarmackie, irańskie) wskazują także zbieżności gramatyczne. W osetyńskim (wywodzącym się od języka Alanów), podobnie jak w słowiańskim, istnieje kategoria aspektu wśród czasowników, a przedrostki są używane do tworzenia czasowników dokonanych od niedokonanych. Podobne jest użycie enklitycznych zaimków osobowych, a także użycie dopełniacza do wyrażania niektórych rodzajów dopełnienia bliższego.




As for cult of solar deity - how would you respond to those arguments:

http://i47.tinypic.com/spbqc3.jpg

and that one:

http://i48.tinypic.com/33y48zn.jpg




Here is a webpage devoted to Balto-Slavic-Indo-Iranian vocabulary:

http://grzegorj.private.pl/lingwpl/slowindoeuro2.html



Słownictwo bałtosłowiańsko-indoirańskie
Łatwo znaleźć odpowiedniości bałtosłowiańsko-indoirańskie, które prawdopodobnie są liczniejsze nawet niż bałtosłowiańsko-germańskie, choć gorzej poznane. Mamy tu więc:

1) izoglosy bałtosłowiańsko-indoirańskie (pośrednio popierające tezę o pokrewieństwie BS); niektóre mają nawiązania w innych językach IE:

•*a – litew. õ – skr. āt ‘potem, i, tak’, aw. āat;
•*avě ‘na jawie; jawnie, jasno, otwarcie’ – litew. ovyje ‘na jawie’ – skr. āvķṣ ‘otwarcie, jawnie’, aw. āviš;
•*azьno ‘kozia skóra’ – litew. ožģnis ‘kozi, koźli’ – skr. ajķna n ‘skóra’;
•*ba – litew. ba ‘oczywiście’ – aw. bā partykuła wzmacniająca;
•*bez (przyimek) – łot. bez, litew. bč – skr. bahis ‘na zewnątrz’;
•*čadъ, *kadъ ‘dym, czad’, *kaditi – prus. accodis ‘wędzarnia’ – skr. kadru- ‘brązowy’;
•*čarъ, *čara ‘magia, gusła, czary’ – litew. kẽras ‘czary’ – aw. čārā- ‘środek (pomocniczy)’ (od kar- ‘robić’; brak w ind., formy słow. i irań. są identyczne, podczas gdy bałt. różni się iloczasem);
•*čisti, *čьtǫ ‘czytać, poważać’, *čitati, *ščitati ‘liczyć’, ukr. citįtysja ‘nudzić, męczyć’ – litew. skaitżti ‘liczyć, czytać’ – skr. cétati ‘myśli, poznaje, rozumie’, aw. čikiθā̊ ‘przemyślany, rozważony’;
•*čьrnъ ‘czarny’ – prus. kirsnan – skr. kr̥ṣṇį-;
•*desnъ ‘prawy’ – lit. dẽšinas – skr. dakṣina-, aw. dašina-;
•*griva ‘grzywa’ – łot. griva ‘ujście rzeki’ – skr. grīvā́- ‘kark, szyja’, aw. grīvā- ‘kark’;
•*klěsnǫti ‘zacisnąć (kleszczami)’ – litew. klģšė ‘kleszcze raka’ – skr. klķśṇā́ti- ‘dokucza, męczy’, klḗśa- ‘ból, dolegliwość’;
•*kortь, *kortъ ‘raz, -kroć’ – litew. kar̃tas ‘raz’, dł kartłs ‘dwa razy, dwakroć’, kįrtis ‘szereg’ – skr. sakr̥t ‘jeden raz’, kr̥tvas ‘t.s.’;
•*kupa ‘kupa, sterta’ (w łużyckich ‘wzgórze’) – litew. kaũpas ‘kupa’, kśopa ‘grupa ludzi’ (*kōp- < *kōup- < *kouHp- z zanikiem -u-) – stpers. kaufa- ‘grzbiet górski’ (IE *koupH-; brak w ind., uderza zbieżność znaczeń irań. i słow.; por. też ang. heap ‘kupa, stos’, niem. Haufe < *koub-);
•*kyša ‘kiszka’ – litew. kūšỹs, łot. kũsis, kũsa ‘kobiece włosy łonowe’, litew. kiaũšis ‘jądro’ (anat.), kįušas ‘czerpak’ – skr. kukṣķ- ‘brzuch, łono, wklęsłość’, kóśa- ‘zbiornik, skarbiec, pochwa’;
•*kъrnъ ‘okaleczony’ (ros. kórnyj ‘niski’) – łot. dial. kuorns ‘głuchy’, litew. kur̃čias, kurlas – skr. kīrṇį- ‘skaleczony’, karṇį- ‘z obciętym uchem’, aw. karəna- ‘głuchy’, oset. kur-ęf-cęg ‘mający krótką szyję’;
•*mě́sto ‘miejsce’ (akut), *město ‘miasto’ (cyrkumfleks, por. czes. mķsto ‘miejsce’ : město ‘miasto’) – litew. maĩstas ‘żywność’ (ale *mintō ‘mieszkam’) – aw. maēθana- ‘mieszkanie, dom bogów i ludzi’ (brak w ind.);
•*mosъ-, *moso- być może widoczne w ros. mosólitʹ ‘dokuczać, usilnie prosić’, głuż. mosćić so, mosćeć so ‘roić się’ (*mosъtъ ‘rój’) – litew. mašóju, -ti ‘spłodzić dziecko’, mćšalas ‘komar’, mćkatas ‘meszka’ (z rozwojem kentumowym), łot. masalas ‘giez’ – skr. maśįka- ‘bolimuszka, komar’, mįkṣ-, mįkṣā, makṣikā ‘mucha, pszczoła’, aw. maxśī ‘mucha, komar’ (zob. także o innych nazwach muchy);
•*nikъ(to), *ničь(to) ‘nikt, nic’ (formy bez -to w strus. i słoweń.) – litew. niẽkas ‘nikt, nic’ – aw. naēčiš ‘żaden’, naēčit ‘nic’ (brak w ind.);
•*otъlěkъ ‘pozostałość, reszta’ (w scs.) – litew. ćtlaikas ‘t.s.’ – skr. atirḗka- ‘resztki, szczątki’ (dokładny odpowiednik; rdzeń PIE *loikʷ-);
•*pazduxa ‘pacha’ (słoweń. pȃzduxa, poza tym *pazuxa) – wsch.łot. pazuse – skr. dṓṣ-, dōṣṇį- ‘przedramię, dolna część przedniej kończyny zwierzęcia’, aw. daoš- ‘ramię, bark’ (w BS *pōs ‘przy’);
•*paža ‘ramię’ (czes. paže), *paxa, *paxy ‘pachwina’ – łot. paksis ‘róg domu’ – skr. pįkṣa- ‘ramię, skrzydło’, pakṣas- ‘bok, bark, połowa’, pājasya- ‘pachwina’ (łac. pectus ‘pierś’ jest nieco bardziej odległe semantycznie i morfologicznie);
•*pьrsь ‘pierś’ – litew. dial. pģršys (pl.) ‘przednia część końskiej piersi’ – skr. pįrśu- ‘żebro; wygięty nóż’, aw. parəsu- ‘żebro’, pərəsu- ‘bok, żebro’, oset. fars ‘strona, okolica’;
•*ritь ‘rzyć, tyłek’ (ale także strus. ‘kopyto’) – litew. rķetas ‘udo, lędźwie, szynka’ – pers. rit ‘tyłek’ (bez ind., ale jest w orm. eri, por. niżej);
•*sirъ ‘sierota’ – litew. šeirỹs ‘wdowiec’, šeirė͂ ‘wdowa’ – aw. saē ‘sierota’ (bez ind.; IE *orbho- przyjęło w słow. znaczenie ‘niewolnik’);
•*sivъ ‘siwy’ – litew. šżvas ‘biały, siwy (o maści konia)’ – skr. śyāvį- ‘ciemny, ciemnobrązowy’, aw. syāva- ‘czarny’;
•*sórka, *svórka ‘sroka’ (ros. soróka, scs. svraka, serb. svrȁka) – litew. šįrka, prus. sarke – skr. śārikā ‘sroka indyjska’ (por. też nazwy innych ptaków w innych językach satəm: orm. sareak ‘szpak’, alb. sorrė ‘wrona’ < *ḱwērnā);
•*svętъ ‘święty’ – litew. šveńtas ‘t.s.’ – aw. spənta- ‘t.s.’ (bez ind., IE *ḱwen-, por. germ. *xunsla- ‘ofiara’, np. w gockim hunsl-);
•*sъčetь ‘szczecina; szczotka; szczeć’ – litew. šłkos (pl.) ‘grzebień’, łot. suka ‘szczotka, zgrzebło, czesak’ – skr. śūka- ‘żądło, ość kłosa’, aw. sūkā- ‘igła’;
•*tъščь ‘czczy, pusty, błahy, daremny’, scs. sъtъsnǫti ‘zirytować się’, czes. stesknouti se ‘poczuć smutek’, stesknouti si ‘skarżyć się’ – litew. tłščias ‘pusty’, łot. tukš ‘wolny, pusty, czczy’ – skr. tucchį-, tucchyį- ‘pusty’, aw. tusən ‘tracą równowagę’, baluczi tusag ‘zgubić się’;
•*větъ ‘rada’, *větje ‘zjazd, wiec’ – lit. dial. vaitenł ‘osądzam’, prus. waitiāt ‘mówić’ – aw. vaēθ- ‘sądowy’, vaēθā- ‘wyrok’ (bez ind.);
•*xudъ ‘chudy, biedny, mizerny’ – litew. skaudłs ‘kruchy; bolesny; rzęsisty; skory’ – skr. kṣudrį- ‘drobny, niski’, kṣódati ‘kruszy, ubija, rozciera, druzgocze’; możliwe też zestawienie z skr. kṣodhuka- ‘głodny’, kṣudhyati ‘głoduje’;
•*zъlъ ‘zły’ – litew. atžū́las, atžūlłs ‘szorstki, grubiański, chamski’, įžū́las ‘natrętny, bezczelny’ – oset. ęwzęr ‘zły’, zūl ‘krzywy’, aw. zūrah ‘niesprawiedliwość’, skr. hvalati ‘potyka się, zatacza się’; tylko w słow. i irań. znaczenie ‘zły’, może wynik zapożyczenia semantycznego;
•*žьrti (*žьrǫ) ‘składać ofiarę’ (stąd żertwa) – prus. girtwei ‘wychwalać’, litew. gģrti, girił ‘chwalić, sławić’ – oset. arğawun ‘odprawiać nabożeństwo’, aw. gar- ‘pochwała’, aibigərənte ‘chwali’, skr. gr̥ṇāti, gr̥ṇķte ‘śpiewa, sławi’ (w słow. i częściowo irań. znaczenie religijne);
2) izoglosy wyłącznie słowiańsko-indoirańskie (bez bałtyjskich):

•*baviti ‘bawić’, pierwotnie ‘powodować trwanie’ – skr. bhāvayati ‘stwarza, ożywia’;
•*bogъ ‘bóg’ – awestyjskie baɣa, staroperskie baga ‘pan, bóg’; wyraz ten jest również epitetem pomniejszych bóstw w skr. – bhaga-; w indoirań. znaczy też ‘udział, dola, bogactwo’; wyraz ten może być zapożyczony;
•*bolgъ ‘błogi, przyjemny, miły’ (ros. bólogo, scs. blažiti ‘błogosławić’, pol. błagać, stpol. błogać, zmieszane z błahy) – aw. bərəg- ‘rytuał religijny; hołdować, witać’, skr. Bŕ̥has-pįti ‘pan modlitwy i pobożności’; łączenie tego wyrazu z PIE *bhelg- ‘świecić, jaśnieć’ (skr. bhįrgas- ‘promieniująca jasność’, łotew. bal͂gans ‘białawy’) jest niesłuszne, gdyż wówczas w słow. mielibyśmy intonację akutową (reguła Wintera);
•*briti, *brьjǫ ‘przycinać, golić’ (por. brzytwa) – aw. pairibrīnənti ‘obcinają naokoło’, skr. brīṇįnti ‘okaleczają’ (por. też trac. brilṓn ‘golibroda’);
•*burьnъ ‘burzliwy, burzowy’ (ros. burnyj) – skr. bhū́rṇiḥ ‘wściekły, gniewny’ (nadto orm. buṙn ‘burzliwy, gwałtowny’ – w innych językach IE również istnieją podobne wyrazy, ale nigdzie poza tym nie ma formy i znaczenia takich jak w porównywanych grupach);
•*čajiti sę ‘czaić się’ – skr. cāyati ‘zauważa, spostrzega, troszczy się’;
•*čьstь ‘cześć, szacunek’ – skr. cķtti- ‘myślenie, zrozumienie’, aw. čisti- ‘t.s.’ (derywat od *čisti, por. wyżej);
•*divъ ‘zły duch, demon’, divъjь ‘dziki’ (por. pol. dziwożona) – aw. daēva, stpers. daiva- ‘demon’; pokrewne wyrazy w bałtyjskim, indyjskim i w innych językach IE mają znaczenie ‘bóg’ (np. litew. diẽvas); wyraz ten może być zapożyczony;
•*dьržěti ‘trzymać, dzierżyć’ – aw. dražaite ‘trzyma, ma przy sobie’ (w innych językach znacznie jest inne, zob. niżej);
•*gajati ‘krzyczeć, krakać’ (w strus.) – skr. gā́yati, gā́ti ‘śpiewa’ (por. reduplikowane toch. A kāk ‘krzyczał’);
•*gatati ‘przepowiadać, wróżyć’, stpol. gatać ‘rozmawiać, rozważać’, por. gadać – skr. gā́thā- ‘pieśń, werset’, aw. gāθā ‘pieśń religijna’ (derywat od poprzedniego; w irań. i słow. związek z magią); wyraz ten może być zapożyczony;
•*gojь ‘pokój, pomyślność’ – aw. gaya- ‘życie, żywot’, w skr. znaczenie nieco inne: gįya- ‘domostwo, gospodarstwo’, poza tym nieznane;
•*goldъ ‘głód’ – skr. gįrdha- ‘chciwość’, aw. gərəša- ‘chciwy’ (por. też skr. gr̥dhra-, aw. gərəša- ‘śpieszny’); por. niżej *žьlděti;
•*jędrъ ‘silny, jędrny’ (oraz *jędro ‘pestka, jądro’) – aw. indra- ‘Indra’, skr. ķndra- ‘silny; Indra’, indriyį- ‘moc; potencja’; wyraz ten znany też w toponimii bałt. (Indus, Indura, Indra, Indrają, Indrica) oraz w gr. hadrós ‘bujny, dojrzały, silny, krępy’ < IE *jn̥dro-;
•*kajati ‘powodować, że ktoś się kaja, karać, obwiniać’ – aw. kāy- ‘odpłacać, pokutować, pomścić, karać’ (podobna forma i znaczenie);
•*kotъ, *kotьcь ‘kojec, drewniane pomieszczenie dla zwierząt’ – aw. kata- ‘jama, piwnica’, npers. kad ‘dom’ (może pożyczka z irań.);
•*kъn ‘ku’ – skr. i aw. kam, podobnie jak w słow. łączące się z dat.;
•*Mara ‘demon śmierci’ (por. też pol. Marzanna, czes. Mařena) – skr. māra- ‘śmierć, zaraza; diabeł, zły’ (od rdzenia *mor- z wzdłużeniem);
•*nebo, gen. *nebese ‘niebo, przestrzeń powietrzna, miejsce przebywania bogów’ – aw. nabah- ‘t.s.’, (także het. nepiš ‘t.s.’); poza tym w IE wszędzie występuje znaczenie ‘chmura’ lub ‘mgła’; wyraz ten może być zapożyczony;
•*niščь ‘biedny’ (stpol. niszczotny) – skr. nķṣtya- ‘obcy’;
•*nьznǫti i *nizati, *nižǫ ‘przebijać, przekłuwać’ (tu być może też *nožь ‘nóż’) – skr. nķkṣati ‘przedziurawia’, aw. naēza- ‘ostrze’;
•*obačiti ‘zobaczyć’ (pol. baczyć wtórne z fałszywego podziału ob-aczyć) – aw. aiwyāxšaya- (*abi-ākšaya-), derywat od oko;
•*ovъ ‘ów, ten’ (w polskim zachowane pierwotne znaczenie oddalenia) – skr., aw., stpers. ava- ‘tamten, ów’;
•*patriti ‘patrzyć’ – aw. pāθrāy ‘chronić’; wyraz ten może być zapożyczony;
•*pěsъkъ ‘piasek’ – skr. pāṁsś-, pāṁsukį- ‘kurz, piasek’, aw. pąsnu- ‘t.s.’;
•*pisati,*pišǫ ‘pisać’ – sper. nipištaniy ‘t.s.’; takie znaczenie tylko w słow., irań. i toch., poza tym ‘malować’ (także w pol. pisanka);
•*piskъ ‘zawiązek pióra u pisklęcia’, czes. pisk (pokrewne: pisklę) – skr. picchį- ‘sterówka, pióro ogonowe’;
•*pitvati, *pitvajǫ ‘ciąć tępym nożem’ (zachowane w pol. dial. pitwać) – aw. pōiθva- od *paitwa- ‘kruszyć’;
•*pьrkati ~ *pъrkati ‘parzyć się (o kozach)’, czes. prkati ‘śmierdzieć jak cap’, s-ch. pȑč ‘kozioł, cap’ – skr. upaparcana- ‘spółkowanie’;
•*radi, *radьma ‘dla, z powodu’ – stpers. rādiy ‘t.s.’, w obu wypadkach postpozycja z gen.; wyraz ten może być zapożyczony;
•*sanъ ‘godność, dostojeństwo, urząd’ – skr. sā́nu- ‘wierzchołek, wysokość, powierzchnia’ (wyraz słow. może być pożyczką turkijską);
•*slovo ‘słowo, opowieść’ – aw. sravah ‘słowo, nauka’; poza tym znaczenie ‘sława’; wyraz ten może być zapożyczony;
•*sormъ ‘wstyd’ (stpol. srom) – aw. fšarəma-, npers. šarm, osetr. ęfsęrm; w germ. inne znaczenie, np. sisl. harmr ‘zmartwienie’;
•*stepь ‘step’ (pierwotnie rodzaj żeński) – oset. tępęn ‘płaski’;
•*sъdorvъ ‘zdrowy’ (dosłownie ‘jak dąb’) – stpers. duruva-, aw. druwō- ‘t.s.’, od IE rdzenia *deru- ‘dąb’, np. skr. sudrś- ‘dobre drewno’;
•*šibati, *-ajǫ ‘chłostać’, tu też pol. szybki – skr. kṣipįti ‘rzuca’, kṣiprį- ‘szybki’, aw. xšviwra-, xšōiwra- ‘szybki, biegły’ (IE *ksib- ~ *ksip-; wahania spółgłoski także w stpol. szyp, szyb ‘strzała, dziryt’);
•*šujь ‘lewy’ (por. pol. szuja) – skr. savyį- ‘lewy’, aw. haoya- ‘t.s.’ (IE *seujo-);
•*šśrьjь ‘szurzy, brat żony’ – skr. syālį- ‘brat żony’ (IE *sjeuH-rjo-; istnieją też nieprzekonujące próby innych etymologii);
•*tajati, *tajǫ ‘tajać, topnieć’ – oset. tʿajun ‘t.s.’;
•*tęgnǫti ‘ciągnąć’, *tǫžiti ‘naciągać’, *tęžiti ‘ciążyć’ – aw. θanǰaya- ‘ciągnąć, naciągać łuk’, oset. tʿynjyn ‘rozciągnąć’;
•*trъvati ‘trwać’ – aw. taurvaya- ‘pokonać, uporać się’, skr. tū́rvati ‘pokonuje, zwycięża’;
•*tъlkъ ‘tłumacz; tłumaczenie, sens’ (ros. tolk ‘znaczenie, sens’) – skr. tarkįyati ‘przypuszcza, zastanawia się’, tarka- ‘rozmyślanie’;
•*vertenъ, *vertenjь ‘miara długości’ (w dial. brus., ukr., błg. i s-ch.) – mitanni-aryjskie aikavartana ‘jeden obrót’, skr. varatana- ‘obrót’;
•*vertmę ‘obrót, czas’ – skr. vįrtman- ‘koleina’, por. poprzednie;
•*volsъ ‘włos’ – aw. varəsa- ‘włos, sierść’;
•*voržiti ‘wróżyć, szkodzić magią’ – ormuri waž ‘rzucać uroki’ (*warz-), oset. warz- ‘kochać’; w słow. rozwój kentumowy;
•*xyba ‘błąd, brak, niedostatek’, *xybotati ‘chwiać, chybotać’ – skr. kṣóbhate ‘drży, chwieje się, jest zdenerwowany’, aw. xšaob- ‘wpadać w irytację’ (postać słowiańska reprezentuje postać IE *ksūbh-);
•*želdь, *želdica ‘marznący deszcz’ (scs. žlědica, stpol. żłódź) – npers. žāla (*žalda) ‘grad, szron’ (w gr. khįlaza inny stopień wokalizmu);
•*žьlděti, *žьldjǫ, *žьldiši ‘pożądać, pragnąć’ – skr. gr̥̄dhyati ‘jest chciwy, żąda’; por. wyżej *goldъ;
•przyrostek -ota, np. czarnota (dziś raczej czarność, czerń) – skr. kr̥ṣṇatā (dokładny odpowiednik semantyczny i formalny);
3) izoglosy wyłącznie bałtyjsko-indoirańskie (bez słowiańskich); podane przykłady mogą być zapożyczeniami:

•litew. dśona ‘chleb’ – irań. *dāna- ‘ziarno, zboże’, skr. dhāna-;
•litew. javaĩ ‘zboże’ – aw. yava- ‘ziarno’;
•prus. keutaris ‘gołąb’ – pers. kabūtar-;
•litew. miẽžis ‘jęczmień’ – irań. *maiz- ‘siać nasiona’;
•litew. svķestas ‘masło’ – aw. xšvid- ‘mleko’.

What do you think? Author conlcudes that they probably are more numerous than Balto-Slavic and Germanic common vocab.





Author then moves to conlusions:


Oto kilka wniosków płynących z przedstawionych w artykule rozważań:

1) Najbliższą grupą dla słowiańskiego jest grupa bałtyjska, zarówno pod względem leksykalnym jak i gramatycznym. Jest to wreszcie grupa, którą łączy ze słowiańskim najwięcej cech fonetycznych (np. opozycja twarda spółgłoska – miękka spółgłoska, pierwotnie obecność intonacji sylabowych). Wniosek – wbrew niektórym niedowiarkom, którzy nie mają w zwyczaju uzasadniać swoich tez, języki słowiańskie i bałtyjskie stanowiły kiedyś jedność. Nie wnikam tu, czy niegdysiejszy język bałtosłowiański rozpadł się w pewnym momencie na bałtyjski i słowiański, czy też może Słowianie to niejako jedna z gałęzi Protobałtów, która uzyskała językową odrębność, np. w wyniku najazdu irańskich Sarmatów (hipoteza ta wygląda dość atrakcyjnie i zgodna jest z legendami, które, jak mówią, niosą ziarno prawdy).

2) Języki bałtosłowiańskie wykazują wyraźne zbieżności leksykalne z innymi językami satəm, zwłaszcza z indoirańskimi. Pozostałe, tj. albański i ormiański, podległy tak silnym wpływom nieindoeuropejskiego substratu (języka, na który się nałożyły), że trudno już dziś cokolwiek wnioskować na temat ich niegdysiejszych pokrewieństw czy leksyki (np. tylko stosunkowo mały odsetek słów ormiańskich ma ustaloną jakąkolwiek etymologię). Tym bardziej nie sposób przeprowadzić analizy języków wymarłych, jak tracki, które są po prostu poznane bardzo wyrywkowo. Wyraźne podobieństwo dobrze poznanych i mało zmienionych języków satəm świadczy, że cała ta grupa wywodzi się z jednego wspólnego prajęzyka.

... listing Baltic as the lingustically closest family to Slavic, and then the Indo-Iranian family. What do you think?


Interestingly he also believes Indo-Aryans could have been orignially closer to Slavs than Iranians and also that Slavs remained in the Indo-European heimet for the longest time:


6) Ponieważ w językach słowiańskich najmniej jest trudnych do zetymologizowania pożyczek przedindoeuropejskich (zwłaszcza takich, których nie byłoby i gdzieś indziej), założyć należy, że ta właśnie grupa najdłużej pozostawała w praojczyźnie Indoeuropejczyków. Radiacja języków satəm nastąpiła chyba dopiero wtedy, gdy większość języków kentum zajęła już swoje historyczne siedziby. Pewne przesłanki (np. nazwy geograficzne) sugerują, że Indowie byli pierwotnie bliższymi sąsiadami przodków Słowian niż Irańczycy, jednak potem to oni dotarli dalej na wschód. Związki leksykalne czy semantyczne irańsko-słowiańskie to już wynik ich późniejszego sąsiedztwa.

Jarl
06-23-2010, 07:29 PM
I can search for some other literature like by Zbigniew Golab or Moszynski, however I know that linguistically Iranians and Balto-Slavs are considered to have been in a fairly close relation. The loanwords and lexical parallels in religion vocab are a frequently repeated argument.

Cail
06-24-2010, 10:37 AM
Secondly, if Swar means heavens then dont you contradict yourself a bit saying his original function/meaning was that of fire?
Where did i say that? Swarg "means" sky. Swarog is a sky god. Swarozic is an epithet of Dadzbog, who is a solar/fire god.


Anyway I am not certain what you meant... If I understood correctly then Swarga and Swarog are two words with "unrelated meaning". Is this what you are trying to say? If so then you deny the Swarog-Swarga parallel.
I'll try to rephrase. Swarog and Swarga are undoubtedly of the same root. But they came to be used religiously among Slavs and Iranians independently. Swarog is literally "sky one", a natural name for a sky god. Swarga is literally "skies", a metaphor for heaven. One is not connected with another. The fact that they stem from the same root does not in any way imply semantical codevelopment.


Well then if raj is a loanword then there was some common base in the spirituality of those people.
Yes. First of all, ALL Indo-European paganisms have a common base. A lot of common myths and legends, common gods (often of the same name) were still preserved in the historical times among very distant nations. You can find parallels between mythologies of Celts and Singals. Let alone Slavs and Iranians who lived in a close contact.

Second, the fact that Slavs have religious loanwords from Iranic does not in any way mean common exclusive ancestry. Modern Slavic languages have innumerous Greek and Latin religious loans. All modern Christian nations have Semitic religion loans.



Here is the list of iranian loanwords collected from some literature by one Polish amateur:

Zapożyczeń irańskich jest przypuszczalnie sporo. Za takowe uchodzą przede wszystkim terminy związane z religią:
I know all of this perfectly well, i'm a slavist after all :D. Again, loans do not indicate any relation.


Here is a webpage devoted to Balto-Slavic-Indo-Iranian vocabulary:
Some of these are loans, but most are just common I-E. roots. Would it be a surprise if said that nearly ALL words in I-E. languages have cognates in other languages? What interests historical comparativistcs is a)common innovations b)semantical codevelopment. This is the initial step of determining the assumed relatedness. The next step is an attempt in reconstructing a common proto-dialect and finding it's place in the chronology of I-E. A proto-Germano-Balto-Slavic dialect is reconstructed with a very good degree of preciseness, and is placed quite a long time after the divergence of PIE, while a dialect that would be ancestral to both B-S. and I-I. is not much different from late Proto-IE itself, indicating that there was no common development after that time. Loans and areal reconvergence came much later.


What do you think? Author conlcudes that they probably are more numerous than Balto-Slavic and Germanic common vocab.
Author may conclude what he wants, but it is not so. Germanic shows way more commonalities with Balto-Slavic, both lexical, grammatical and semantical, and what is much more important - a lot of common innovations, unlike I-I.


2) Języki bałtosłowiańskie wykazują wyraźne zbieżności leksykalne z innymi językami satəm, zwłaszcza z indoirańskimi.

listing Baltic as the lingustically closest family to Slavic, and then the Indo-Iranian family. What do you think?
I repeat, Satem-Centum hypothesis is long since outdated. You can read about that in my previous post. Centum Greek is a close relative of Satem Armeno-Aryan, Satem Balto-Slavic is the closest relative of Centum Germanic.


...Iranians and Balto-Slavs ... fairly close relation. The loanwords and lexical parallels in religion vocab are a frequently repeated argument
*facepalm. Loans do not indicate relation.

Jarl
06-25-2010, 06:05 PM
A proto-Germano-Balto-Slavic dialect is reconstructed with a very good degree of preciseness, and is placed quite a long time after the divergence of PIE,

That is interesting. I though Germano-Balto-Slavic was a lose concept, even much more controversial than the well evidenced Balto-Slavic. If this is so obvious then how about this study:

http://www3.isrl.illinois.edu/~junwang4/langev/localcopy/pdf/ringe02IECladistics.pdf


Figure 7...

Cail
06-25-2010, 09:58 PM
That is interesting. I though Germano-Balto-Slavic was a lose concept, even much more controversial than the well evidenced Balto-Slavic.
Balto-Slavic is actually not controversial any more, only marginals argue it. It has a huge solid base. Germano-Balto-Slavic is controversial to some extent indeed, but so are all theories above only very recent level of grouping (because of uncertainties arising exponentially with time depth). Still, it is a very viable, and probably the most rooted, theory to this date.


If this is so obvious then how about this study:

http://www3.isrl.illinois.edu/~junwang4/langev/localcopy/pdf/ringe02IECladistics.pdf

I will read it more detailed later, but at first look-through it looks like a standard morphology-augmented mass comparison via computers, which is initially flawed, and doesn't account for A LOT of things. Things like this result in placing Old Prussian as a branch of Baltic, and Albanian in the broader Germanic branch. Old Irish and Welsh at the same depth as Latin and Oscan O_O??? Quite ridiculous.

Jarl
06-25-2010, 10:55 PM
Balto-Slavic is actually not controversial any more, only marginals argue it. It has a huge solid base. Germano-Balto-Slavic is controversial to some extent indeed, but so are all theories above only very recent level of grouping (because of uncertainties arising exponentially with time depth). Still, it is a very viable, and probably the most rooted, theory to this date.

Germano-Balto-Slavic concept is afaik based on lexical arguments. Which like you said do not have to indicate genetic relationship. I also do not quite understand why if and why you reject Kentum-Satem as a genetic division? From what I read it has by no means been rejected, however it's importance as the main early branching has been questioned.

And from what I read on the website which I gave you the link to, there is no for broader lexical base of Germano-Balto-Slavic than Satem... there several such splits/groupings the priority of which is disputable:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/05/Indo-European_isoglosses.png/350px-Indo-European_isoglosses.png

http://dnghu.org/indoeuropean/indoeuropean_archivos/image005.png

...so what exactly do you mean that Centum Germanic is colses to Satem Balto-Slavic? Closest in what? The Germanic substrate hypothesis is also based on lexics and according to it, Germanic is a creole of IE and non-IE languages.


Things like this result in placing Old Prussian as a branch of Baltic, and Albanian in the broader Germanic branch. Old Irish and Welsh at the same depth as Latin and Oscan O_O??? Quite ridiculous.

This one clearly did not and in fact it clearly makes sense. I dont think it argues for any novelty or anything which you would strongly disagree with, perhaps with the exception that Germanic branches first and then there comes the Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian split :)

And on one linguist forum I came across a remark its one of the better-evidenced IE trees ever constructed. Have a read and tell me why Germanic does not cluster closer to Balto-Slavic than the Indo-Aryan in their method.



http://bialczynski.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/pie-drzewo.jpg?w=513&h=707


Drawing from W. Anthony in „The Horse, The Wheel and Language”. He places Germanic either in e dialect continuum close to Balto-Slavic and Indo-Aryan, or a Italo-Celtic. He seems to support the theory thet proto-Germanic was some blend of:


The Germanic branch of Indo-European languages probably inherited more from the R1b cultures, although R1a is likely to have arrived earlier in Scandinavia, during the Corded Ware period. R1a people would have mixed with the pre-Germanic I1 aborigines to create the Nordic Bronze Age (1800-500 BCE). R1b would have reached Scandinavia later as a northward migration from the contemporary Hallstatt culture (1200-500 BCE). The first truly Germanic tongue could have been a blend of Hallstatt Proto-Celtic and the Corded-Ware Proto-Slavic with a few pre-Germanic loan words. The fact that present-day Scandinavia is composed of roughly 40% of I1, 20% of R1a and 40% of R1b reinforces the idea that Germanic ethnicity and language had acquired a tri-hybrid character by the Iron Age.


..."proto-Celtic" and "proto-Slavic". Or acquired its similarity to Celtic due to some early contacts prior to the Satem group differentiation. The authors of the paper I listed reach a similar conclusion - page 111. However, none of them gives Germanic a clear priority over Indo-Aryan.


I think genetics definitely supports this theory, as paternally Slavs are closer to Indo-Iranians than to most other Germanics, or indeed the whole Kentum branch/grouping.

Jarl
06-26-2010, 12:58 AM
Kortland also places Germanic in a central cotinuum:


The earlier migrations yielded the peripheral languages (Tocharian, Anatolian, Italo-Celtic), which did not take part in the late Indo-European innovations of the central dialects (Indo-Iranian, Greek, Germanic, Balto-Slavic, etc.). Some innovations affected only a part of the central dialects, such as the assibilation of the palatovelars (which did not reach Greek and Germanic) or the loss of aspiration in the voiced stops (which did not reach Greek and Indic). Other developments had a more local character.

...

The Indo-Europeans who remained after the migrations became speakers of
Balto-Slavic. If the speakers of the other satem languages can be assigned to the
Yamnaya horizon and the western Indo-Europeans to the Corded Ware horizon,



...which then evolved more less in parallel sharing some innovations with some neighbours but not others.


So... if this is true:


1. Satem Balto-Slavic is the closest relative of Centum Germanic.

2. Germanic shows way more commonalities with Balto-Slavic, both lexical, grammatical and semantical, and what is much more important - a lot of common innovations, unlike I-I.


Then who advocates this Germano-Balto-Slavic theory today?



I'll try to rephrase. Swarog and Swarga are undoubtedly of the same root. But they came to be used religiously among Slavs and Iranians independently. Swarog is literally "sky one", a natural name for a sky god. Swarga is literally "skies", a metaphor for heaven. One is not connected with another. The fact that they stem from the same root does not in any way imply semantical codevelopment.

Don't quite understand what you tried to say here by "not connected" and why you pre-assume Swarog and Swarga arose independently? Especially if a similar deity/demon is present Iranian beliefs:

http://i47.tinypic.com/spbqc3.jpg





...Iranians and Balto-Slavs ... fairly close relation. The loanwords and lexical parallels in religion vocab are a frequently repeated argument
*facepalm. Loans do not indicate relation.


If there is a historical influence of Iranian religion over Slavic, documented in loanwords then how can you say it does not "indicate relation"? This is an argument raised by Gieysztor, Reczek, Gołąb and both Moszyński father and son:

http://sms.zrc-sazu.si/pdf/01/SMS_01_Moszynski.pdf

So what's the facepalm about? Finally you did not respond to this argument by Jakobson:

http://i48.tinypic.com/33y48zn.jpg


In Polish if its easier for you:

http://i47.tinypic.com/9fqhyf.jpg


- replacement of IE dieus (deity) with the same word meaning heavens

- giving a new meaning to dieus

- same or similar meaning of ray, bog, wera, zertwa (sacrifice etc)

Jarl
06-26-2010, 03:30 PM
More literature on Scythian (Iranian) influences over Slavic religion:




Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition + Britannica:

http://www.questia.com/library/encyclopedia/slavic_religion.jsp

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/548484/Slavic-religion/65461/Folk-conceptions

"Scythian Religion":

http://www.amazon.com/Scythian-Religion-Scythians-Ethnography-Proto-Indo-Iranian/dp/6130543255

"Ancient Slavic Religion", M. Gimbutas:

http://books.google.com/books?id=fVQz3I4FCWUC&pg=PA247&lpg=PA247&dq=Slavic+religion+Iranian&source=bl&ots=MQZQcRUbyl&sig=JnT2NXHrNucdM2pgqVMMhzDzikI&hl=pl&ei=cxwmTLq9JcyTjAelnLh3&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBgQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=Slavic%20religion%20Iranian&f=false

"Religious beliefs and ritual calendar of pre-Christian Russia", I. R. Vasilevsky on Indo-Iranian roots of some pre-Christian Slavic beliefs:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/0757245p145k6732/

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1579602


Other parallels in religious symbols in decorative art:

http://www.anthroglobe.info/docs/Sergei/scythian-sarmatian-religion.htm


Here on the etymology of Swarog and Indo-Aryan Iranian paralells:

http://cejsh.icm.edu.pl/cejsh/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?09SKAAAA065913

http://www.ceeol.com/aspx/issuedetails.aspx?issueid=f719e748-01e0-49cb-8fd2-66aba05e8d86&articleId=8dad8dc1-e234-4087-9238-3e31764499d6



More on the possible dualism in Slavic religon:

http://eprints.lib.hokudai.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/2115/8061/1/KJ00000034018.pdf



And of course Roman Jakobson:

http://www.archive.org/details/selectedwritings01jako

Cail
06-26-2010, 06:04 PM
Germano-Balto-Slavic concept is afaik based on lexical arguments. Which like you said do not have to indicate genetic relationship.
Nope. Germano-Balto-Slavic share lots of common innovations, both in lexic (and innovations in lexic are not the same as lexical loans, you can easily see which is which by the form, whether or not certain sound laws are applied et cetera) and, what is much more important, in morphology and grammar, common substrate words (which is also a strong indication to a common proto-dialect), common semantical developments et cetera et cetera.


...so what exactly do you mean that Centum Germanic is colses to Satem Balto-Slavic? Closest in what?
Closest in ancestry, stemming from a common proto-dialect. Acquired "closeness" (reconvergence) is quite not the same.

The Germanic substrate hypothesis is also based on lexics and according to it, Germanic is a creole of IE and non-IE languages.
Substration happened after the split, and the "creole" is an obvious overstatement.


Finally you did not respond to this argument by Jakobson:
Some of these arguments are very easily rebuked:

2), referring to "deiwos". First of all, Slavic semantic of this root is ambivalent, f.e. "diwo" (wonder) is positive. Second, and most important, if there was a relation, it would obviously be not Slavo-Iranic, but rather Balto-Slavic - Indo-Iranic. Neither Balts, nor Indians have this developments. "Dievas" is "god" in Baltic, "Devas" are Vedic gods.
3)Same as above. Not shared by Baltic = not genetic, but areal.

Argument about "svent"/"svętъ" is pure lol. This is a proto-IE root, shared by many I-E. languages. Santa Claus anybody?

Resume: author is not accustomed with most basic modern Balto-Slavic and PIE studies.


If there is a historical influence of Iranian religion over Slavic, documented in loanwords then how can you say it does not "indicate relation"?

So what's the facepalm about?
I fail to see logic in this. How does influence indicate relation?? Obviously it does not. It indicates contacts and interaction. Relation is common ancestry. Slavs and Iranians do have common ancestry of course, but not a closer one than with many others.

This is what facepalm is about (over and over again). Influence, loans, areal things =/= Genetic relation, common ancestry, descendance from common proto-dialect.


Don't quite understand what you tried to say here by "not connected" and why you pre-assume Swarog and Swarga arose independently?
There is no presumption of connectedness in linguistic, quite the contrary. There is not evidence that they arose to these meanings connectedly, while there are multiple examples of exactly same semantical shifts occuring independently.


Especially if a similar deity/demon is present Iranian beliefs:
Rarog is not present in any ancient Slavic monument. It appears to be a late, post-Christianization corruption of "Swarog". Absent from many Slavic cultures too.


I also do not quite understand why if and why you reject Kentum-Satem as a genetic division?

I reject it because it is an outdated XIX century theory, without any scientific basis, many times disproved by modern linguistics, that has several counter-examples (satemization arising independently in modern times). There is even no controversy about it today, even the proponent of B-S.+I-I. grouping base it on other things rather than Centum-Satem areal isogloss. Those very publication you posted (which places B-S. and I-I. together) also places Satem Albanian on the same branch as Centum Germanic (doesn't mean i agree with it, but it shows that even them do not take Centum-Satem seriously as a genetic feature).

Jarl
06-26-2010, 06:11 PM
Nope.

1. Germano-Balto-Slavic share lots of common innovations, both in lexic (and innovations in lexic are not the same as lexical loans,

2. you can easily see which is which by the form, whether or not certain sound laws are applied et cetera) and, what is much more important,

3. in morphology and grammar,

4. common substrate words (which is also a strong indication to a common proto-dialect),

5. common semantical developments et cetera et cetera.

6. Closest in ancestry, stemming from a common proto-dialect. Acquired "closeness" (reconvergence) is quite not the same.

7. Substration happened after the split, and the "creole" is an obvious overstatement.

Ok. This is some list of statements. But who advocates these Germano-Balto-Slavic arguments? :)



Some of these arguments are very easily rebuked:

2), referring to "deiwos". First of all, Slavic semantic of this root is ambivalent, f.e. "diwo" (wonder) is positive. Second, and most important, if there was a relation, it would obviously be not Slavo-Iranic, but rather Balto-Slavic - Indo-Iranic. Neither Balts, nor Indians have this developments. "Dievas" is "god" in Baltic, "Devas" are Vedic gods.

3)Same as above. Not shared by Baltic = not genetic, but areal.

Argument about "svent"/"svętъ" is pure lol. This is a proto-IE root, shared by many I-E. languages. Santa Claus anybody?

Resume: author is not accustomed with most basic modern Balto-Slavic and PIE studies.

But that is the point of the discussion - Iranian influence over Slavic religion. The article I postes is NOT arguing for a close genetic relation between languages. Only for Iranian-Slavic commonalities in religion vocab. So it proves that there were some influences.



I fail to see logic in this. How does influence indicate relation?? Obviously it does not. It indicates contacts and interaction. Relation is common ancestry. Slavs and Iranians do have common ancestry of course, but not a closer one than with many others.

This is what facepalm is about (over and over again). Influence, loans, areal things =/= Genetic relation, common ancestry, descendance from common proto-dialect.

What do you fail to see? That Iranians and Slavs seem to share some common concepts in religious cult? I don't know why this thread turned into a discussion on linguistic affinity. The sources I used here focus on religion and beliefs.

So I am not certain now what are you arguing against - the linguistic proximity of Indo-Iranians and Slavs, or the similarities between religions? Indeed loans do not equate to genetic relation, but I get an impression we are going off-top here since none of the authors quoted by me argue for the genetic realtion between languages. Only for close parallels in religious cult. And religion can be also one great loan, just like vocabulary.



There is no presumption of connectedness in linguistic, quite the contrary. There is not evidence that they arose to these meanings connectedly, while there are multiple examples of exactly same semantical shifts occuring independently.

Rarog is not present in any ancient Slavic monument. It appears to be a late, post-Christianization corruption of "Swarog". Absent from many Slavic cultures too.


OK. Let's get the facts down shall we?

http://i47.tinypic.com/spbqc3.jpg

1. Swarog/Swarozyc is the only Slavic known from both the territories of Western and Eastern Slavs in historical sources.

2. Swarog and Swarga both stem from the same root meaning sky.

3. In Slavic folklore there is a sky demon Rarog - also from the same root. Rarog is a Slavic name for a bird of prey.

4. Sky bird-demons are also present in Iranian folklore, while Swarga is Hindu heaven.



Why there is "no evidence" they arose "conncectedly" and why there is evidence that they arose "independently"? What sense ofargument there is if they all retain common features and stem from the same word with the same meaning? It's obvious they did arise from some common concept of a sky-deity and heavenly world.



reject it because it is an outdated XIX century theory, without any scientific basis, many times disproved by modern linguistics, that has several counter-examples (satemization arising independently in modern times). There is even no controversy about it today, even the proponent of B-S.+I-I. grouping base it on other things rather than Centum-Satem areal isogloss. Those very publication you posted (which places B-S. and I-I. together) also places Satem Albanian on the same branch as Centum Germanic (doesn't mean i agree with it, but it shows that even them do not take Centum-Satem seriously as a genetic feature).

They do take it into account, they just do not treat it as the main genetic division. And indeed it's got have some weighing if them or Anthony put Indo-Aryan close to Balto-Slavic.





P.S.

But let's go back to the issues of Slavic religion or make another thread ;)

Jarl
06-26-2010, 06:26 PM
The whole discussion went off tangent here, when you introduced the problem of genetic relation:


This article touches an interesting topic, but the data is doubtful, sometimes outright bullshit. Most of these are just Pan-Indo-European things, not solely Slavic and Indo-Iranian.

(...)

Et cetera. In any case, there was no exclusive genetic relations between Slavic and Indo-Iranian, they belong to completely different branches of I-E. There are many loans though, undoubtedly.

I am not certain if (Balto-)Slavic and Indo-Iranian belong to "completely different branches" of IE. According to scholars like Anthony or Kortland they are as close as Balto-Slavic and Germanic....


....but what does the fact that there allegedly "was no exclusive genetic relations between Slavic and Indo-Iranian" has to do with similarities in cult?



These are two quite different issues. While the genetic relation seems close and some "innovations" were, like Kortland suggests, shared by Batlo-Slavs and Indo-Iran, it is the religion which is the subject of this discussion. And this takes us back to the issue I already mentioned on the last page. Of the similarities between Slavic and Iranian cult mentioned by Jakobson:




http://i48.tinypic.com/33y48zn.jpg


In Polish if its easier for you:

http://i47.tinypic.com/9fqhyf.jpg


- replacement of IE dieus (deity) with the same word meaning heavens

- giving a new meaning to dieus

- same or similar meaning of ray, bog, wera, zertwa (sacrifice etc)


Is those ideas are not shared by the Balts is of no greater significance, for its not about linguistic affinity but about the Slavic cult possibly having common concepts with Iranian religions, as some authors point out.

Cail
06-27-2010, 07:42 AM
So it proves that there were some influences.
I never argued with that. Influences were quite significant.


Swarog/Swarozyc is the only Slavic known from both the territories of Western and Eastern Slavs in historical sources.
Also Weles and Jarilo/Jarovit.


The whole discussion went off tangent here, when you introduced the problem of genetic relation:
At first i misunderstood your original post as implying some relation, but then you really brought up Satem-Centum and i jumped to the battle :D.

Jarl
06-27-2010, 11:01 AM
I never argued with that. Influences were quite significant.

Also Weles and Jarilo/Jarovit.

I am not certain about Weles. Historical sources mention he was a deity worshipped in Rus. That is certain. Some claim that Veles survived in Czech and Kashubian folklore as a demon of death or underworld - like Vele or Velevitka. Perhaps it is true, but I think that we will never know for sure since even if we equate them with Weles then he could have been "relegated" to such a level long before Christianity or could never have achieved the status of a chief deity in the West... But fair enough, it's a bit like Swarog/Rarog and the Iranian bird-gods or Swarga. This is some argument in favour of relation.

That is why I prefer to stick to contemporary written accounts. In these only Swarog and his Western variant Swarozyc seem to be attested a gods of both East and West Slavs.

On the internet you can find claims that Veles was the same Trzygłów, Trojan or even Rugewit, but I am sceptical since we know so little about those western gods. Likewise, I don't trust the aguments of toponymy - like Wolgast --> Weles (the whole relation between wół -> weles is dubious according to Brückner).


At first i misunderstood your original post as implying some relation, but then you really brought up Satem-Centum and i jumped to the battle :D.

LOL! I see its a touchy subject with you! :P