What exactly is a borreby?

[Saruman]

I see different views on this. So, lets begin. 2 patterns:
Light pigmented, broad mandibles, short upper face, rather short nose with perhaps tendency towards concave shape, broad bizygomatic, tall, robust, heavy boned, long skull with very wide skull, rather bulbous forehead, in essence this is Coon's famous borreby guy, someone on skadi forum had him in avatar with "classify this" inscription.

And the 2nd view that differs with first mainly regarding the shape of skull, Borreby has a turriform skull, with rather slightly convex nose not like ,but somewhat heading in dinarid direction but not concave, stronger browridges which means a rather slightly receding forehead because bulbous forehead means weak browridges.

So which one is correct, perhaps both? I looked at Agrippas race tree diagram and there Borreby heads in 2 directions: one is alpinisation, the other is dinarid which forms with mediterranid admixture. So the first POV that I mention is consistent with rather a partial alpinisation of Cromagnid while the 2nd is a taurisation of cromagnid, so the latter is a cromagnid adapted to life in mountains?

I read on skadi where "Franz Josef" said that borreby skull differs from a dinarid one in that it's vertex is higher than bregma giving it a "tent like" appearance while the dinarid is flatter at the top. Could this mean a confirmation of Agrippa mediterranid admixture since mediterranids have rather low skulls so this rather extreme taurid skull was therefore modified plus the greater slenderness of dinarid introduced by mediterranid.
Also the rather flat skull walls of dinarid can be explained by mediterranid admixture?

here i think typical dinarid, Montenegrin PM, 6'6" 198 cm, flat back of the head but bregma not lower than vertex.
http://www.blic.rs/_customfiles/Image/slike/2009/10_oktobar/31/tema/milo-ver.jpg

And here the higher vertex skull of Herzegovina Croat politician to the right, height is around 1.92, left of him Serb from west Bosnia, CM/faelid/nordid classified by Agrippa
http://protest.ba/v2/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/dnevni_bilmez_43.jpg

Again vertex not higher than bregma skulls, both montenegrin, presidents of Serbia(R) and Montenegro (L) in profile. their heights are 190 and around 194, Both mostly dinarid I think especially the montenegrin, Serb has probably CM.
http://www.politika.rs:8080/uploads/rubrike/58342/i/1/Vujanovic.jpg

[Anthropos]

Borreby is a location in Denmark, simple as that.

Google search (http://www.google.se/search?q=Borreby+Denmark&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:sv-SE:official&client=firefox-a)

[Saruman]

Borreby is a location in Denmark, simple as that.

Google search (http://www.google.se/search?q=Borreby+Denmark&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:sv-SE:official&client=firefox-a)

I love geography.:)

If these turriform skulls are found there and called "borreby type" how did they got taurised in Denmark's flat land? That process should be occurring in higher grounds.:confused:

[Amarantine]

Saruman has right, we had similar to the Borreby types here-but usually what often confused me, is terminology, probably for our part of Europe, they have some other term.

[Tabiti]

But borrebies don't have convex noses and so brachiocephal skulls like the Dinaro-CM versions you've mentioned above, or I am wrong?

[Saruman]

Saruman has right, we had similar to the Borreby types here-but usually what often confused me, is terminology, probably for our part of Europe, they have some other term.

I'm not sure there is such term, I know "Carpathid" is a dinarid/alpinid blend but I'm not sure it's good for the description of these altered CM's. Coon described them "borreby-like" ,but then again Coon had different ideas about borrebies, I read somewhere agrippa called Coon's borrebies "a joke", so there is an obvious conflict of ideas about what this type in it's pure form is.

Or perhaps the best explanation is that there are several alterations of CM heading towards taurisation and alpinisation that fall under the term "borreby". Coon described these partially alpinised CM's as "borreby"(in his book these are long skulled), and these taurised CM's from southern mountains as "borreby-like"(these were shortskulled). But as mentioned Coon had different views about them than others, he had no "faelid" but described them as borreby/nordid mix.

I found one here, Bosniak shot putter, from eastern Bosnia. I couldn't find the profile shot, but it seems he has flat back of head, he has slightly sloped forehead and I noticed in these Coon's "borrebiy-like's" it goes along with the flat back of head. While the long sculled Coon's borreby from dennmark has a bulbous forehead, like an enormous alpine skull. He also has these forehead ridges above the browridges which look like romulan in "star trek". No wonder the guy is a shot putter I cannot imagine dinarids or nordids being successful there as I cannot imagine him being good at high jump.:D
http://www.sarajevo-x.com/media/images/vijesti/080717111.jpg
http://www.treasure.ba/Treasure_Site/Novosti/Entries/2008/8/8_Kugla%C5%A1_Hamza_Ali%C4%87_na_olimpijskim_igram a_u_Pekingu_files/shapeimage_1.jpg

And this guy from northern Montenegro/Rascia, somewhat darker but still huge body and height at least 6'4".
http://tuzlalive.ba/portal/wp-content/uploads/pecanin.jpg

I think I'll wait for Agrippa's opinion if he comes, I wanted to ask him about this for some time but I wasn't registered, I was then just reading forums collecting data and views.

[Saruman]

But borrebies don't have convex noses and so brachiocephal skulls like the Dinaro-CM versions you've mentioned above, or I am wrong?

Those dinarids, and dinarid/CM I posted to exemplify the possible supposed difference between the "borreby-like skull", and dinarid skull(per Franz Josef from skadi).
Regarding nose, look let's say you have a cromagnid/dalofaelid, I think they have mostly straight or very slightly concave noses, now
1. alpinisation starts and they become more concave("ski-jump":D) from Coon's "borreby", only partially alpinized
-skull is still long while becoming more broad hence greater CI.
Later after further reduction becomes alpinid.
Also I read agrippa-s opinion that alpines are from southern CM's therefore are darker pigmented, Paleatlantid-Berid-Alpinid, but in his race tree he left a connection between boreby and alpine as well, so maybe why there are many lighter alpines as they are reduced/alpinized lighter CM's.
2. taurisation starts and they become slightly convex or straight while still somewhat short, then later they become dinarid like, very convex and also much longer possibly due to the mediterranid influx as they have longer noses, and then we get a typical dinarid nose.
-Skull gets shortened "taurized", back of skull flat, vertex higher than bregma very high skull. Mediterranid admixture later changes the skull and vertex is no longer higher than bregma. Now that's a dinarid.

So 2 types of altered CM's(faelids) in my view here then, taurized of mountains and partially alpinized of flat lands.
I think it makes sense but then the problem arises with these short and high skulls from borreby.

[The Black Prince]

Borreby is just the name of a place near an archaeological site where in the 19th century some skulls where dug up. The skulls had in common with other UP skulls a huge faciocranium and large neurovranium. However unlike the other UP skulls they where brachycephalic.

This was seen in those days as the proof that they were of another racial type. However it should be noted that brachycephalic skulls did exist among other UP populations, but just because the longheaded element (chiefly dolicho-, minor mesocpehalic) was larger in quantity those other UP skulls where regarded as on average chiefly dolichocephalic.


The comparison may be profitably extended through the Rudstone and Aldro skulls to the Borreby skull (No. 2), to the calvaria from the kiss of
Podbaba (which deserves more attention than it has received hitherto),
and finally to the Swedish skull (No. 39) (described by Professor G. Retzius
in the Crania Suecica),1 which is much larger than the others here compared with it (fig. 14).

Should the justice of this comparison be admitted, it is worth noticing
that the several members are derived from very different sources. Thus
the Sudbury calvaria came from a peatyalluvial deposit, where it was
associated with bones of the extinct Urus and of Bos longifrons. The
Rudstone and Aldro skulls are from round barrows of (possibly) late Neolithic antiquity (cf. British Barrows, p. 246 et seq.; also Mortimer, op. cit.,
p. 63). The Borreby skull was found with others in a Danish tumulus of
similar antiquity, and the Swedish skull (No. 39) is apparently of the same
period.

Source: The Sudbury Calvaria, W. L. H. DUCKWORTH (1912)



"Mr. Busk drew my attention, some time ago, to the resemblance between some of the skulls taken from tumuli of the stone period at Borreby in Denmark, of which Mr. Busk possesses numerous accurate figures, and the Neanderthal cranium. One of the Borreby skulls in particular (Figure 5) has remarkably projecting superciliary ridges, a retreating forehead, a low flattened vertex, and an occiput which shelves upward and forward. But the skull is relatively higher and broader, or more brachycephalic, the sagittal suture longer, and the superciliary ridges less projecting, than in the Neanderthal skull. Nevertheless, there is, without doubt, much resemblance in character between the two skulls—a circumstance which is the more interesting, since the other Borreby skulls have better foreheads and less prominent superciliary ridges, and exhibit altogether a higher conformation.

"The Borreby skulls belong to the stone period of Denmark, and the people to whom they appertained were probably either contemporaneous with, or later than, the makers of the 'refuse-heaps' of that country. In other words, they were subsequent to the last great physical changes of Europe, and were contemporaries of the urus and bison, not of the Elephas primigenius, Rhinoceros tichorhinus, and Hyaena spelaea.

Source: The Antiquity of Man, Charles Lyell (1863)



What the true age was of the Borreby skulls I don't know, texts telling the circumstances on how the skulls were situated are mostly 19th century. Those texts all say they where found in a tumulus with stone axes.. this, if true, would make them definitely younger than Upper-Paleolithic, rather Neolithic..


Hügelgräber wurden während mehrerer Epochen errichtet. Es begann am Ende der Jungsteinzeit und endete im 7. und 8. Jahrhundert n. Chr., vorherrschend sind jedoch die Hügel der Bronze- und der frühen Eisenzeit.

source 'weakipedia ;)': http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hügelgrab

[Saruman]

This was seen in those days as the proof that they were of another racial type. However it should be noted that brachycephalic skulls did exist among other UP populations, but just because the longheaded element (chiefly dolicho-, minor mesocpehalic) was larger in quantity those other UP skulls where regarded as on average chiefly dolichocephalic.




So that "borreby" is just a UP variation? Still I saw many times browsing through classification threads people using that term often. Ok, UP variant is also a good term.
Anyway I saw in this area primarily ranging from montenegro to western herzegovina people who are as tall or even taller than dinarids and more robust, with smaller and not quite convex noses, wider jaws so I wondered what their classification would be. I thought maybe they are alpine/dinarid mix but that would produce shorter people.
Here's nice comparison between the two types I tried to identify previously, American and Montenegrin admirals, both big, montenegrin is maybe around 6'6". I think most would classify US admiral as Coon's "borreby", while this montenegrin is not quite previous montenegrins I posted, PM and President of MNE though very tall are both slender like typical dinarids, this one is robust and has straight nose and different jaw from typical dinarids.

http://www.afsouth.nato.int/JFCN_Images/2009/003.jpg
http://www.afsouth.nato.int/JFCN_Images/2009/019.jpg

[safinator]

http://i.imgur.com/UqNoX.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0J7tO.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rNb0H.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/qCRuz.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/1g7gX.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/smb6F.jpg