Slavic- Germanic

[esaima]

I have been a member of TA for some months. I have noticed that people and peoples with similar language can get well along. It is logical because language means much. I belong myself into a small group but l´d like to focus to 2 big ones: Slavic and Germanic. I consider myself rather to be an East-Europophile (hehe, it is not so typical for my country) but respect also all other cultures.
I have noticed that there exists strong solidarity among Slavic speakers. The thing that actually surpises me a bit is that compared to Slavic speakers it seems that the Germanics even don´t seem to notice that they are related. I.e.Slavs are much more group-centered.So, pan-Slavism exists but where is pan-Germanism?
Would be interesting to hear your different opinions. And of course, friends, not only opinions of Germanics and Slavs but opinions of everyone would very welcomed.

[Jarl]

From my experience Pan-Slavism is strong among certain Slavs, like Western Slavs. Slovenians, Serbs and Macedonians are generally very conscious of their Slavic heritage. Obviously, there is less sympathy between Serbs and Croats, perhaps also between Poles and Russians, particularly among older generations. Though to a large extent this simply translates into aversion to communism, which most West Slavs hold. Likewise, most Ukrainian-speaking Ukrainians, particularly from the West, are today very pro-Western. While those Russian-speaking in the East, tend to be more communist and pro Russian. It's slightly similar with Belorussians too.

[Osweo]

Um, the Slavonic solidarity you mention could be questioned, as that sphere has some pretty deep rifts - but then again, intra-family feuds are always the most bitter, and the root of them is often the notion of the betrayal of a desired unity...

If we didn't go down the road of examining this initial point, however, but took your statement as it is, we might suggest that the solidarity is a product of the historical and geopolitical circumstances that saw the Germanic peoples become the most successful and developed on the planet (in some spheres at least) in the last few centuries - a position which has waned but whose fruits are still being enjoyed. Enjoying this, the Germanic individual peoples congratulated themselves on their own particular distinctive traits, seeking to explain their success by these in a more narrow sense than meta-ethnic.

THe Slavyane on the other hand, have played 'second fiddle' against this for a long while. Even Russia's might was accompanied by a feeling of 'little brother' in the spheres of infrastructure, technology, economics and public life, in which she sought to emulate the Germanic nations. In such a circumstance, ambitious patriots had to find a world role other than trying to beat the British Empire at its own game, and Pan-Slavism was one means for this, providing a geopolitical 'mission' and emphasising broader ethnic relations that Germanics had no need to explore.

Additionally, the Slavonic languages in general are FAR more mutually inteligible than the Germanic - they split far more recently. The similarities are thus more glaring even to the least educated of laymen. A Don Cossack in Lusatia or Istria is going to be far more impressed by Slavdom than an uneducated Cumberland Englishman by Germandom if exposed for an equal period to Swedish or Bavarian language and culture.

Germanics also live on the periphery of Europe. Slavs have all manner of strange aliens around them; Finnics, Turkics, Magyars, Germans; all to remind them of their relative relatedness against these.

Oh, and Pan-Slavism is to an extent Russian dominated, while Pan-Germanism has more evenly matched rivals for its soul. The former is thus better suited to some degree of success, while the latter will almost inevitably collapse in meta-ethnic 'civil war'...

You could write books on this, but I am tired now, so let's hear some others take up the many other aspects worthy of discussion here!

[Jarl]

There is one strong factor behind Pan-Slavism... it's the history of Germano-Turkic oppression of Slavs. Its the XVIIIth and XIXth century birth of Slavic nationalisms into the reality of Germanic imperialism and oppression. This was one of the key factors which gave rise to Pan-Slavism. Czechs, Slovaks, Poles, Rusyns, Slovenes, Serbs, Croats in the Austro-Hungarian Dual Monarchy. Poles in Prussia. Bulgarians in Turkey. They were all degraded to second-class citizens and they all wanted to be more indepenent, and were looking for help from Russia. Even in Poland, despite the fact most of its former territories were incorporated by Russia, there was a very strong pro-Russian fraction, headed by Roman Dmowski in the WWI period.

Pan-Slavism eventually collapsed with the tsardom. Imperial Russia could not save Bosnia from annexation, nor Serbia. Tsars did not want to make any concessions to the occupied Slavic countries, like Poland, nor even to their own people. Not until Russia was in chaos and on the verge of revolution, and it was all too late as noone was interested in offers from a government with no real power... Communism destroyed this original Pan-Slavism. However, it became itself a new uniting political current. Communism, although now assessed rather negatively, also contributed to this sense of a common "Eastern" identity.

[Svanhild]

Could it not be that the two world wars ruined our pan Germanic solidarity and identity to a sizeable extent? Germanic countries fought each other ruthlessly and our reputation as Germans is not the best. People confuse German with Germanic and react defensive. But I'm sure, deep in their hearts Brits, Dutchmen or Swedes know that they're more related with Germans and each other than they would ever admit in open talk. My gentle hope is that these feelings grow stronger and stronger over time.

There is one strong factor behind Pan-Slavism... it's the history of Germano-Turkic oppression of Slavs. Its the XVIIIth and XIXth century birth of Slavic nationalisms into the reality of Germanic imperialism and oppression.

Böse böse Deutsche!

[Osweo]

Could it not be that the two world wars ruined our pan Germanic solidarity and identity to a sizeable extent?

The Gallicising of the Normans was probably more significant. (Or that of the Franks themselves in the west. Germanics took on too much from Rome, and to some extent forgot who they were.) And yet the feeling of relatedness was still immensely strong in the eleventh century among my countrymen. We knew the significance of converting our continental and Scandinavian kinfolks. But then came 1066. Because of the Norman Conquest, our linguistic link with you was broken. It's easier for us, as a result, to read a French or Spanish newspaper than a German one.
The Reformation brought a degree of commonality back to us, but it was incomplete, and still divides 'us'.

But I'm sure, deep in their hearts Brits, Dutchmen or Swedes know that they're more related with Germans and each other than they would ever admit in open talk. My gentle hope is that these feelings grow stronger and stronger over time.

But why stop THERE? Why not foster this for all Europeans, or all Northern Europeans?
Too often on the net at least, Germans proposing this sort of thing expect Englishmen to join in their feuds with Polaks and Russkies (see the forums Skadi and Germanic Worlds), and well, I don't give a damn for THIS! It's a real turn off.

[Humanophage]

Well, Slavic countries on the overall are more nationalist at the moment due to a variety of factors. That also means some Slavic nations hate each other a lot more aggressively than any Germanic nations do in this period of time. However, I wouldn't say Pan-Germanism is hardly noticeable. I mean, Skadi?

It appears this message is a poor copy of what Osweo has already said.

[Svanhild]

But why stop THERE? Why not foster this for all Europeans, or all Northern Europeans?
Too often on the net at least, Germans proposing this sort of thing expect Englishmen to join in their feuds with Polaks and Russkies (see the forums Skadi and Germanic Worlds), and well, I don't give a damn for THIS! It's a real turn off.

I maintain no feuds with Poles, Russkies or other tribes. But I've to admit that people of my language (group), culture, looks and history are the closest to me and stand in a higher favor. I dare to say that this is something very natural. If nationalistic movements or parties increase their influence in Russia, Italy or Croatia I'm sincerely happy. But my feelings of relatedness to them are rather abstract. I wish them no harm and I support strategical cooperation but they are like people from a different village: Nice, but the own village comes first.

[SuuT]

Well, for one, and as already hinted at, Germanics have been fighting other Germanics and noticing and emphasising differences as opposed to commonalities for thousands of years: This seems to be the nature of war-like peoples - that there is no more bitter a feud that that which occurs between close brothers. The problem, for Germanics, in this vein is that the progression of the world theatre does not and will not stop for these pissing contests; Slavs seem craftier (more adaptive, anyway) as far as this goes. - Ergo, a greater appearance of solidarity.

If I may be so bold as to speak for Germanendom, here; I wouldn't place much credence on perceptions as far as the Germanic world goes from a Slavic perspective, as, IMO, the degree to which Germanics are willing to let things fall to shit before uniting against a common foe is sort of a staple of what makes one a Germanic.

[Osweo]

I maintain no feuds with Poles, Russkies or other tribes. But I've to admit that people of my language (group), culture, looks and history are the closest to me and stand in a higher favor. I dare to say that this is something very natural.

And yet I feel closer to plenty of Russians than I do with Austrians, on a cultural level...
Germandom is too old, and with too many differing substrata in its extremities to be a 'natural' thing any more, I suspect. To non-philologists, anyway. You mention looks, yet I personally don't look like many Prussians or Swabians.

The nationally minded English seem quite happy with a 'Celto-Germanic' label, interestingly enough. When I first saw this thread, I hoped it might be a discussion of an equivalent 'Slavo-Germanic' identity, that tackled eastern Germany's history in a more honest way than many are willing to.