Understanding Celtic Mythology

[Oreka Bailoak]

I really want to know what the real ancient Celtic mythology is so I did some research.

1) Determining what is Ancient Celtic Mythology

There are NO primary sources for texts written by people following Celtic mythology. However, there are literally hundreds of stories from the early Christian era written in the Celtic countries which definitely have traces of ancient Celtic Mythology in them. So the problem becomes determining which is recently created folk tales and which is actual ancient Celtic Mythology.

After doing some research I'm sure that Irish Mythology is the oldest out of all the existing sources (Welsh, Irish, Scottish, Isle of Man, Brittany)- and out of the four Irish Mythological Cycles I believe the Irish Mythological Cycle is the oldest followed by Fenian cycle.

(The Four Irish Mythological Cycles are the Mythological Cycle, the Fenian Cycle, the Ulster Cycle and the Historical/King Cycle)

I feel that the Irish Ulster Cycle is not as old because it's only from one province of Ireland, the Gods have already left earth and only make short appearances back. I feel that the Fenian cycle is older because of the strong connections to nature, the Gods still lived on earth and interacted with people, there was much magic, and the stories are known in both Ireland and Scotland, and therefore the Fenian Cycle is of much greater significance than the Ulster Cycle.

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2) The Closest We Can Get

So I think the closest we can get to the true ancient Celtic Mythology is the Irish Mythological Cycle and the Irish Fenian Cycle. There is a book that has both titled "Gods and Fighting Men" by Lady Gregory so I purchased that.

Also it's good to get an idea of what the outside sources said about the Celts 2,000 years ago so I purchased the book "A Brief History of the Druids " by Peter Ellis for a summary of the outside sources (Caesar, Tacitus etc.)

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Do you guys think I'm on the right track? Or have I made a mistake in trying to find the oldest and closest to the real ancient Celtic Mythology?

[Treffie]

I posted this many moons ago; Welsh Deities.

[Murphy]

This is from an article concerning the early Irish Church from a book I am typing up for another forum. It may contain some interesting information for you.

All the manuscripts of the Irish annals are late. The earliest is of the Annals of Innisfallen, in contemporary hands from the end of the eleventh century down to 1321. The Annals of Ulster have been transmitted in copies of the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries. The Annals of Ulster and the Annals of Tigernach go back to a similar text, to which the Annals of Innisfallen are related. After about 590 the sequence of events of all three is very similar; before 590, there are more discrepancies. It looks as if from c.590 onwards there was a set of Annals on which all the extant recensions drew. Before this date if we look at the Annals of Ulster and Annals of Tigernach less than half of the total entries are common; otherwise each set of Annals adds independently, arranging its entries in different order.

The chronology of the Annals seem to be roughly consistent for the sixth century. There are references to the grandsons of Niall Noígiallach between 507 and 522, to his great-grandsons between 536 and 565, to his great-great-grandsons between 554 and 604. But when we go back into the fifth century there is something badly wrong with the dating of the Irish Annals. Niall himself dies in the Annals of Innisfallen before 382, in 'Chronicum Scotorum' at 411, in the Four Masters at 405, but the sons of Niall are active between 429 and 516, and the brother of his alleged slayer dies c.483/5. This means that Niall's sons and associates have an absurdly long time-span. The reasonable events of the later fifth century have been extended backwards.

There was clearly no contemporary record of the fifth century, but later, perhaps in the seventh century, historians had an oral tradition to which they had to attach a chronology. Genealogy and tradition provided a roughly reliably record backwards until the late fifth century; beyond this chronological sequence in native affairs was extremely vague. Later historians had fixed one date, 431, when Palladius was sent as first bishop to the Irish believing in Christ. Native tradition emphasised Patrick as the Irish apostle, so Patrick had to come as soon as possible after this. Historians 'knew' that he came in the fourth year of Lóeguire, so that provided a date for Lóeguire's reign. But most of Niall's associated belong to the second half of the fifth century, and it might quite well be argued that Niall himself must have died not before the middle of the fifth century.

The genealogical tracts say that Emain Macha fell to the three Collas, cousins of Niall's father, but it was Niall and his sons who finally broke up the 'fifth' of Ulster. It is almost certain that the foundation of the Christian centre of Armagh must belong to the period before the final collapse of Ulster. If we date the death of Niall and the floruit of his sons to the second half of the fifth century we can accept the period of approximately 461-92 as a likely one for Patrick.

This means we need to think of Christianity filtering in probably from the beginning of the fifth century, Palladius arriving in the southern half of Ireland in 431. Christianity penetrated slowly northwards. Auxilius and Iserninus, who are said to have died in 459 and 468, should perhaps be associated with the continental phase of the mission. Iserninus is supposed to have founded Aghade in Carlow and Kilcullen in Kildare, Auxilius Kilashee near Naas. The conversion of the north came with Patrick, probably in the second half of the century. It is impossible to be exact about dates, but the genealogies of kings and the deaths of associates accommodate a floruit of c461-92 better than any other.

The 'Epistle' and 'Confession' show a first-generation missionary Church. The love of Christ had given Patrick to the Irish people, so that he was committed to serve them for the duration of his life. His position was insecure, he gave his free birth for the benefit of the Irish, suffering bonds. He speaks specifically of two periods of captivity, once for two months, when he was delivered on the sixtieth night, once in irons in irons when he was delivered on the fourteenth day. He has preached constantly in the extremities of the world: 'We are witnesses that the gospel has been preached unto those parts beyond which there lives nobody'. He has baptised thousands and confirmed many, and clerics have been ordained for them everywhere. He repeats these claims more than once: of many baptisms, confirmations, and the installation of priests to minister to the converts.

[Oreka Bailoak]

I posted this many moons ago; Welsh Deities.

Those are based off the Mabinogian. I've seen internet critics say that the Mabinogian is less ancient than the Irish Mythological cycle, the Irish Ulster Cycle and the Irish Fenian Cycle based upon context clues.

If the Mabinogian is less ancient then that should mean that it came into existence towards the end of the Celts and is not the most ancient Celtic mythology (probably also a substantial degree of regional alteration within the text compared to the more ancient Irish sources which are more widespread).

With there being hundreds of sources for old Celtic stories I want to simplify it to the one most ancient version which I think is contained within the Irish Mythological Cycle and the Irish Fenian Cycle and neatly all together within the one book- "Gods and Fighting Men" by Lady Gregory.

This is from an article concerning the early Irish Church from a book I am typing up for another forum. It may contain some interesting information for you.
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Christianity penetrated slowly northwards.

Actually this would suggest that the Irish northern province of Ulster may be the best place to look for ancient Mythology.

But within the Ulster Cycle (such as the Tain which is more a time of towns and forts and war-chariots; a time when magic was less present and people were less intertwined with Nature than in the Golden Age. The Gods had already departed our realm and only made brief cameos in the stories). Also the Ulster Cycle isn't found in other parts of the Isles such as the Fenian Cycle which is found in Scotland and Ireland.

So I still think the Ulster Cycle is overrated and in fact not as ancient as the Fenian and Mythological Cycles for the above reasons.

[Oreka Bailoak]

By the way look at the list of gods at the end of this page...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_pantheon

Pretty much all the Irish gods are in the Mythological Cycle. I was surprised at how many Celtic Gods are in the Irish Ulster Cycle. A few were in the Fenian cycle. Also the Welsh Mabinogi was surprisingly close as well to the Continental Celtic Mythology but not as close as the Celtic Mythological Cycle.

So I think the Celtic Mythological Cycle is the most important and closest to the real ancient Celtic Mythology. (I'm just not sure about the Fenian Cycle being older than the Ulster Cycle anymore- the Fenian Cycle seems older based on context clues than the Ulster Cycle but the Characters seem older in the Ulster Cycle than the Fenian Cycle).


And, I guess I'll just read the Irish Mythological Cycle now to save time and stay truest to the original and not read the Fenian Cycle.

[Argyll]

Celtic mythology can be quite hard to decipher at times. And remember that Christian monks also got their hands on it, so a lot of it was censored and many things (that we can assume) were changed. I'm getting a book called The Silve Bough, and it's a huge book of Scottish folklore! I can't wait!