Phenotypically were Anglo-Saxons closer to the Irish than to the English?

[Ajeje Brazorf]

There are western german samples though:

German_Westphalia,0.13175312,0.13433368,0.06319614 5,0.04787837,0.038678049,0.018666544,0.0051906167, 0.0066936765,0.0027417477,-0.0018693379,-0.004916688,0.0037392222,-0.0082857135,-0.0061314317,0.017150301,0.0043547719,-0.0066608064,0.0012153565,0.0020038148,0.003363186 2,0.0041528789,0.002091711,0.0015644399,0.01111674 1,-0.00017338284

German_Rhineland-Palatinate,0.12877804,0.13967813,0.052566483,0.029 05694,0.038211705,0.01139598,0.0034960307,0.004657 9789,0.0064833331,0.0087950742,-0.0040491327,0.0052474918,-0.011381638,-0.007391737,0.012740324,0.003668474,-0.0042308623,0.0013498264,0.0030577818,0.001049000 1,0.0025572908,0.001827031,0.00094084951,0.0096815 691,-0.00031364999

German_Saarland,0.12992273,0.14262918,0.051923936, 0.024619841,0.040983019,0.009517666,0.003098696,0. 0044294351,0.0095067969,0.013085635,-0.0040515913,0.0053286187,-0.011363341,-0.0057331431,0.0088879763,0.0028583835,-0.0031079469,0.0015602536,0.0043989382,-0.00075674013,0.0008497625,0.0016056314,0.00112034 81,0.0090718294,-0.00086838923

German_Lower_Saxony,0.1322647,0.13504482,0.0647066 37,0.05146246,0.040172915,0.020240163,0.0048428201 ,0.006737015,0.0024415023,-0.0024220375,-0.005520426,0.0036797118,-0.008253442,-0.0066629181,0.019060978,0.0071004912,-0.006319104,0.0016752066,0.003021322,0.0033861693, 0.0041263465,0.002131275,0.0013208164,0.013258454, 0.000026004303

Those are simulated, right?

[Beowulf]

Those are simulated, right?

I think i've got them from the mariopoulos collection so idk if they are simulated or not.

[Creoda]

I think i've got them from the mariopoulos collection so idk if they are simulated or not.

They are. Thus useless.

[Creoda]

absolutely not frisians themselves are mixed with celtic slightly, anlgo saxons were purely scandanvian genomic wise

Scandinavians are also mixed with 'Celtic' as well as other things since the Viking era, part of Norway apparently has as much as 25% Insular Celtic, plus more Southern ancestry. Nobody is exactly the same since the Early Medieval period.
https://i.postimg.cc/9fv9JwGy/Got-VW...-estimates.png

The early Anglo-Saxons overwhelmingly cluster with modern Danes and NW Germans/Frisians (hence Continental Northern European), not so much with Swedes and Norwegians. That only makes sense because that's where they were from.


You can see here in Fst distances Early Medieval England is closest to modern Northern Germany, then Denmark, then England and Netherlands, and Norway and Sweden behind those. Friesland would likely be as close or closer than Northern Germany if it was separated from the rest of the Netherlands,


When it comes to phenotype the Anglo-Saxons were more Nordid like North Dutch/Frisians than the more CM/Faelid evolved people of modern Denmark and Northern Germany, hence the so-called Anglo-Saxon phenotype: a slightly more robust 'Hallstatt Nordic', more common in the Northern Netherlands than anywhere else. Moreover the way the Anglo-Saxons looked should be visible in the most Germanic looking English people, and I would argue they tend to look more North Dutch/Frisian than Scandinavian. What say others?

[Oliver109]

Scandinavians are also mixed with 'Celtic' as well as other things since the Viking era, part of Norway apparently has as much as 25% Insular Celtic, plus more Southern ancestry. Nobody is exactly the same since the Early Medieval period.
https://i.postimg.cc/9fv9JwGy/Got-VW...-estimates.png

The early Anglo-Saxons overwhelmingly cluster with modern Danes and NW Germans/Frisians (hence Continental Northern European), not so much with Swedes and Norwegians. That only makes sense because that's where they were from.


You can see here in Fst distances Early Medieval England is closest to modern Northern Germany, then Denmark, then England and Netherlands, and Norway and Sweden behind those. Friesland would likely be as close or closer than Northern Germany if it was separated from the rest of the Netherlands,


When it comes to phenotype the Anglo-Saxons were more Nordid like North Dutch/Frisians than the more CM/Faelid evolved people of modern Denmark and Northern Germany, hence the so-called Anglo-Saxon phenotype: a slightly more robust 'Hallstatt Nordic', more common in the Northern Netherlands than anywhere else. Moreover the way the Anglo-Saxons looked should be visible in the most Germanic looking English people, and I would argue they tend to look more North Dutch/Frisian than Scandinavian. What say others?

I see quite a lot of English that can pass as Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, someone like Adam Henson would be an example of a Tronder and i have seen similar looks in Norwegians.

[Creoda]

I mean ffs, Friesland was literally repopulated by the same wave of migrating Anglo-Saxons at the same time England was. That's why the English and Frisians spoke mutually intelligible language until the 12th century. The answer is right there.

https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/19/7/1008/1068561

British history contains several periods of major cultural change. It remains controversial as to how much these periods coincided with substantial immigration from continental Europe, even for those that occurred most recently. In this study, we examine genetic data for evidence of male immigration at particular times into Central England and North Wales. To do this, we used 12 biallelic polymorphisms and six microsatellite markers to define high-resolution Y chromosome haplotypes in a sample of 313 males from seven towns located along an east-west transect from East Anglia to North Wales. The Central English towns were genetically very similar, whereas the two North Welsh towns differed significantly both from each other and from the Central English towns. When we compared our data with an additional 177 samples collected in Friesland and Norway, we found that the Central English and Frisian samples were statistically indistinguishable. Using novel population genetic models that incorporate both mass migration and continuous gene flow, we conclude that these striking patterns are best explained by a substantial migration of Anglo-Saxon Y chromosomes into Central England (contributing 50%–100% to the gene pool at that time) but not into North Wales.

[looney_tunes]

Which raises the question again why people keep using G25 averages as a reference when they're clearly inaccurate.

Someone explained that it's not wrong. The Irish and the Anglo-Saxons have a similar amount of Steppe, the English have less, therefore the Anglo-Saxons are genetically closer to the Irish.

[Creoda]

Someone explained that it's not wrong. The Irish and the Anglo-Saxons have a similar amount of Steppe, the English have less, therefore the Anglo-Saxons are genetically closer to the Irish.

By the same rationale, Scandinavians are 'genetically closer' to Poles than to other NW Europeans.

Target: Swedish
Distance: 4.6513% / 0.04651320
50.8 Yamnaya_Samara
32.6 Barcin_N
16.6 WHG

Target: Norwegian
Distance: 4.7103% / 0.04710296
50.0 Yamnaya_Samara
34.4 Barcin_N
15.6 WHG

Target: Polish
Distance: 6.0599% / 0.06059861
50.6 Yamnaya_Samara
33.4 Barcin_N
16.0 WHG

Target: Irish
Distance: 4.9681% / 0.04968106
49.8 Yamnaya_Samara
36.4 Barcin_N
13.8 WHG

Target: Dutch
Distance: 4.3875% / 0.04387522
47.8 Yamnaya_Samara
38.6 Barcin_N
13.6 WHG

[looney_tunes]

By the same rationale, Scandinavians are 'genetically closer' to Poles than to other NW Europeans.

Target: Swedish
Distance: 4.6513% / 0.04651320
50.8 Yamnaya_Samara
32.6 Barcin_N
16.6 WHG

Target: Norwegian
Distance: 4.7103% / 0.04710296
50.0 Yamnaya_Samara
34.4 Barcin_N
15.6 WHG

Target: Polish
Distance: 6.0599% / 0.06059861
50.6 Yamnaya_Samara
33.4 Barcin_N
16.0 WHG

Target: Irish
Distance: 4.9681% / 0.04968106
49.8 Yamnaya_Samara
36.4 Barcin_N
13.8 WHG

Target: Dutch
Distance: 4.3875% / 0.04387522
47.8 Yamnaya_Samara
38.6 Barcin_N
13.6 WHG

You need to look at Steppe when you compare NW Europeans to each other, not when you compare them to outsiders.

[Triskelion]

Although the Irish don't descend from Anglo-Saxons, phenotypically were Anglo-Saxons closer to the Irish than to the English?

Global 25 results:

Distance to: England_Saxon
0.01553202 Irish
0.01815075 English

Distance to: England_Saxon.SG
0.01411547 Irish
0.01761217 English

Distance to: England_EarlyMedieval_Saxon
0.01643549 Irish
0.02001475 English

Distance to: England_EarlyMedieval_Saxon.SG
0.03036594 Irish
0.03383895 English

You are using the wrong tool , for the job. The right tool is not G25 but the Celtic vs Germanic PCA on vahaduo. I am on a smart phone so I won't make a PCA. If you make one with the Irish, English, Saxons and the English Iron Age it will show that the English are closer to the Saxons than the Irish. Like %1of the Irish look Angle-Saxon ,compared to 20% of the English --not including the faelid,Tronder and Hallstat nordic people in England. The Angle-Saxons looked like overgrown hallsatt Nordic Swedes.