Finland will join to NATO and Sweden follows (same timeschedule)

[Hektor12]

Italy and Greece has very personal good historical relationship. If Turkey would attack Greece, it may has very serious consequences. The russian situation is different because russians are also europeans so it's basically an internecine war among whites, but Turkey is a foreign country and most europeans dont see them as one among us, it would be attack on the european continent/civilization by an outsider that would bring european countries together against the enemy.

I said from the beginning "its a poor argument" hence i used it. Because countries had wars in the past doesnt mean they cant form a defensive pact. Thats exactly what i say, that all NATO members have familiarities with each other and wars dont erase them.

Remember when ottomans invaded the Balkans not short after that most europeans supported the Habsburg Empire to kick ottomans out.

To be honest and Frank i remember differently. Ottomans invaded Balkans and there wasnt much problems until they expanded into HRE and Russian territories which resulted in HRE and Russian counter-offensives.

Ottoman Empire had been a part of European history for long time and influenced even very remote parts of it. Real history is different than what do Eurocentric romantics want to believe.

An example which i think not many of youngsters here know about, Swedish King escaped to Ottoman Empire after defeat by Russians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charle...Ottoman_Empire

If this happens, then it would be similar to the austro-hungarian army. We need a leading language, it would be english in the case of EU, and it was german and hungarian in the case of A-H. Nowadays its not a big thing to speak english at least basic level, but such multiethnic armies have it's own limitations. I've heard many story from the WW1 that the A-H army was being weakened by ethnic conflicts. When my grand grand etc father was in the russian front, czech logistics brought the food for the soldiers and they poured the half food out in the bush, and the soldiers were always hungry. Nevertheless the Habsburg Empire had one of the biggest ground forces in the WW1, it's impact ability was not so strong. So i think the national armies are more powerful.

Language-army binding is important. Since Roman times, when the language of elite (Latin) has just died but language of army (Romance) survived as a lot of national languages (Italian, French, Spanish, Romanian).. I dont know what future brings but Europe needs a solid military power as a protection from Russian oligarchy and American globalism. Turkey could be a key partner here, but of course a more secularized and europeanized one.

Spoiler!

Deep down, i have a silly mega project which a said before but im a little bit too lazy i still havent prepared.

[Hektor12]

But of course first USA will need to show Turkey that Turks are American bitches as well ).

[Blondie]

Ottoman Empire had been a part of European history for long time and influenced even very remote parts of it. Real history is different than what do Eurocentric romantics want to believe.

Yes as invaders, its big difference.

[Finnish Swede]

If someone thought Sweden is a democratic model, then they have no idea about democracy. Only these sucks this propaganda who know nothing about Visegrad Countries, who are the most democratic in the EU by far.
I want to create a thread that compare the modern swedish democracy with the communist Hungary (Kádár's liberal communism), i will do it tomorrow or the near future.

Take a little bit more time and study Sweden bit deeper. There is risk that your hatred blinds you. Plus to avoid that there will be lots of to correct afterwards.

For example how to create political party here, how to get that party and its possible candidates participated in general election (our parliament elections), what way and how nation will support that party/all parties (offering equal chances ... money, media etc.) and so on.

Focus also human rights matters, and how independent (close/far) judicial system is from political leadership/parties and economical leadership/money men here.

Corruption and how one face to face another humans will also give some idea how democratic country is in real. How much there is hided ''cronyism'' few people offering benefits to each others. This is not part of democratic system as lots of people will be/stay outside of those (automatically).

Also all countries will not use similar mathematic in their elections. What I can Sweden's it will not favor big parties.

[Hektor12]

Yes as invaders, its big difference.

You can find alliances older than invasion. (:

Holy Roman-German Emperor Frederick Barbarossa, who was in friendly agreement with the Seljukid Sultan Kılıçarslan II for a free passage, drowned in Göksu River around this place while going to Palestine with his army.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freder...rial_(Silifke)

[Loki]

Looks like Finland and Sweden have been partying too soon. Erdogan is sinking the NATO dream ship.

[Longbowman]

Looks like Finland and Sweden have been partying too soon. Erdogan is sinking the NATO dream ship.

Joining NATO will take them a year in the best of circumstances. Erdogan faces elections in a year. Even if he sticks to his guns rather than getting concessions, which is, openly, what he wants... he'll have to roll the dice.

[Loki]

Joining NATO will take them a year in the best of circumstances. Erdogan faces elections in a year. Even if he sticks to his guns rather than getting concessions, which is, openly, what he wants... he'll have to roll the dice.

Let's face it, Turkey is more important to NATO than Finland and Sweden combined. If Turkey sticks to its guns, it would either face Sweden to make some embarrassing changes, for example, or they won't be admitted.

[Longbowman]

Let's face it, Turkey is more important to NATO than Finland and Sweden combined.

Definitely.

If Turkey sticks to its guns, it would either face Sweden to make some embarrassing changes, for example, or they won't be admitted.

Yes but it won't, it will get minor concessions and they will be admitted. Or, I guess, Sweden promises to recognise the PKK as terrorists, not a big deal.

[Voskos]

Denmark? Also Norway and Iceland. Yes, we'll belong to right group.


But of course first USA will need to show Turkey that Turks are American bitches as well ).

So? Evereyone's is being used by either russia or america as a satellite country. You're playing the game. There's of course a third pole of countries within NATO that are trying to maintain their own influence all over the world (like Germany). The main advantages of countries like Sweden, Switzerland, Finland are the fact they mind their own business and develop themselves in all possible ways without having any imperialistic tendencies.You're losing that card forever and it's sad for all Europeans that saw in the Nordic model a hope for a better Europe.

Of course I understand Finns' and Swedes' concern about Russian expansionism, but NATO is just as bad.