Examples of European groups which are more southern than another group, but more blonde/red-hai

[Septentrion]

For example he writes <3% red hair in Estonia which may be based on an amateur map that put most of Estonia in the 2-4% bracket. According to the Juhan Aul study of 15,110 Estonian soldiers only about 1% of recruit age Estonian males are Fischer-Saller reds I-VI. Given that study he writes <3% likely because he is not referring to specific studies. On the other hand Septentrion is quite accurate with >45% blond for Estonians according to that same study which found 49.4% Fischer-Saller fair A-O, so maybe my suspicions are wrong and he has seen that study.

The 15,110 Estonians studied by Aul were all males. Today we know for a fact that females are much more likely to be red-haired than males. Therefore to get a better average you got to have both genders. It’s also more realistic. Only 1% may have pure red hair, but reddish (including auburn, russet, chestnut) will reach almost 3% with no issues. For blonde hair, Estonians are comparable to Scandinavians especially females much more so than males. It’s a very blonde country.

[Septentrion]

They are darker pigmented overall than their Scandinavian or Finnish neighbors to the direct south. Why are they not an example?

Alright. That’s a good one. Saamis do have lower ratios of blonde or red hair, blue or light eyes, fairer complexions than their immediate southern Scandinavian or Finnish or Russian neighbors. Could this be the only example?

[Septentrion]

Northern France is more red haired than Poland, southern Spain is blonder than southern Portugal, southern Greece is blonder than Turkey.

You might be right, but you got to take entire countries like France and Poland as a whole. OK. By the way, Southern Spain isn’t blonder-haired than Southern Portugal.

[Septentrion]

Portugal (S.W. Europe) (39 degrees N) and Italy (S.C. Europe) (42 degrees N)
Portugal is slightly blonder-haired (>10%) than Italy (<10%), and also more red-haired (=3%) than Italy (<1%). Although Italy is lighter-eyed (>25%) than Portugal (<25%). The Portuguese are slightly lighter-skinned than the Italians (according to relatively recent studies). This is probably the closest I’ve found, but Italians are still lighter-eyed. I’m laughing because I know many are going to fight over this, due to their bias. However, let facts be facts.

[Melkiirs]

The 15,110 Estonians studied by Aul were all males. Today we know for a fact that females are much more likely to be red-haired than males. Therefore to get a better average you got to have both genders. It’s also more realistic. Only 1% may have pure red hair, but reddish (including auburn, russet, chestnut) will reach almost 3% with no issues. For blonde hair, Estonians are comparable to Scandinavians especially females much more so than males. It’s a very blonde country.

Post puberty females tend to have lighter hair than men, but even that difference is usually within 5%. Many samples present with no appreciable difference between genders or even lighter-haired males.

This is from a study investigating the relationship between gender and hair color:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/29538913

In 66 locality groups (Beddoe’s observations), 30 show a larger percentage of reds in the females, 32 in
males and in 4 the proportion was equal. The whole group of Beddoe’s males give a red hair percentage of 4.4, the equally large group of females 4.9. So women may tend to be at most slightly more red-haired after puberty.

Fischer-Saller I-VI is not just pure red but encapsulates all notable reddish nuance in light hair. Without including red-blond red would run less than 1% in Estonia. J. Villems found only 0.6% "auburn" and Karin Mark only 0.2% Fischer #1-3 (locality maximum of 1.1%) in their extensive surveys. The Baltic states have some of the least rufosity in Northern Europe, much less compared to the Germanic Swedes for example. J. Villems found 55.8% blond and Mark 34.5%, although the representation of older adults in the latter survey could have brought down the blond proportion.

[Septentrion]

Post puberty females tend to have lighter hair than men, but even that difference is usually within 5%. Many samples present with no appreciable difference between genders or even lighter-haired males.

This is from a study investigating the relationship between gender and hair color:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/29538913

In 66 locality groups (Beddoe’s observations), 30 show a larger percentage of reds in the females, 32 in
males and in 4 the proportion was equal. The whole group of Beddoe’s males give a red hair percentage of 4.4, the equally large group of females 4.9. So women may tend to be at most slightly more red-haired after puberty.

Fischer-Saller I-VI is not just pure red but encapsulates all notable reddish nuance in light hair. Without including red-blond it would run less than 1% in Estonia. J. Villems found only 0.6% "auburn" and Karin Mark only 0.2% Fischer #1-3 (locality maximum of 1.1%) in their extensive surveys. The Baltic states have some of the least rufosity in Northern Europe, much less compared to the Germanic Swedes for example. J. Villems found 55.8% blond and Mark 34.5%, although the representation of older adults in the latter survey could have brought down the blond proportion.

No. I refuse John Beddoe’s bias. I’m relying on recent studies which states that females are more likely to be gingers than males.
https://www.healthline.com/health/re...search%20shows.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0190238

[Melkiirs]

No. I refuse John Beddoe’s bias. I’m relying on recent studies which states that females are more likely to be gingers than males.
https://www.healthline.com/health/re...search%20shows.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0190238

I don’t see what bias would affect that conclusion but Beddoe is just one example.

The study I referenced also addresses rufosity and gender. It turns out that while adults have quite similar frequencies of red hair between genders, it is clearly more represented in females among young children:


E. Reuer in his extensive survey of 16,565 Viennese from birth to 50 found that from the start females are significantly more red-haired. For adults age 20-50 the proportions for each are very similar: 1.31% for males and 1.21% for females. Recent twin studies showing a markedly higher real difference in red hair frequency between the genders are likely skewed due to young children 6 and below. The study with Polish and Slovak respondents you just linked to involved self reporting hair color which comes with its own biases when the respondents are female.

I have no idea why young girls are more frequently red-haired than their male counterparts even with the same MC1R genotype. Difference in hair lightness becomes apparent with puberty. In any case differences are not extreme in hair color between adult males and females all else being equal.

[Septentrion]

I don’t see what bias would affect that conclusion but Beddoe is just one example.

The study I referenced also addresses rufosity and gender. It turns out that while adults have quite similar frequencies of red hair between genders, it is clearly more represented in females among young children:


E. Reuer in his extensive survey of 16,565 Viennese from birth to 50 found that from the start females are significantly more red-haired. For adults age 20-50 the proportions for each are very similar: 1.31% for males and 1.21% for females. Recent twin studies showing a markedly higher real difference in red hair frequency between the genders are likely skewed due to young children 6 and below. The study with Polish and Slovak respondents you just linked to involved self reporting hair color which comes with its own biases when the respondents are female.

I have no idea why young girls are more frequently red-haired than their male counterparts even with the same MC1R genotype. Difference in hair lightness becomes apparent with puberty. In any case differences are not extreme in hair color between adult males and females all else being equal.

I’m not denying the rarity of red hair. I’m a tall (197cm), red-haired (precisely light auburn tone) person myself. In many places, I stand out and don’t come across people who look like me. I wasn’t denying that! This is why I posted articles in my previous posts for you to find out how women are more likely to be red-haired more so than men. Women tend more red-haired and blonde-haired as well.

Women are twice as likely to be blonde-haired than men according to scientific studies.
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...e%20than%20men
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-43782751.amp

https://www.healthline.com/health/red-hair-green-eyes

[Melkiirs]

I’m not denying the rarity of red hair. I’m a tall (197cm), red-haired (precisely light auburn tone) person myself. In many places, I stand out and don’t come across people who look like me. I wasn’t denying that! This is why I posted articles in my previous posts for you to find out how women are more likely to be red-haired more so than men. Women tend more red-haired and blonde-haired as well.

Women are twice as likely to be blonde-haired than men according to scientific studies.
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...e%20than%20men
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-43782751.amp

https://www.healthline.com/health/red-hair-green-eyes

There are other studies of adults that show women much more blond and red-haired. This is a 1948 study of 470 American college students enrolled in genetics at Ohio State University. 36.3% of the females were found A-O about twice that of males at 17.4%. 4.1% of females were found I-VI (mostly red-blond) against 1.7% of men:


Maybe adults overall like with the studies Keiter referenced are closer in hair color than at college age specifically? That is the discrepancy arising with adolescence lessens with age.