Who do you think mainland Greeks overlap more with: their northern neighbors or Southern Italians?

[Trun]

Discuss. I won't post pictures, there are enough.

I vote for Southern Italians.

[Sikeliot]

By northern neighbors he means Albania, Macedonia, and Bulgaria primarily.
And by southern Italians that'd mean Calabria, Sicily, Apulia, Lucania and Campania.

[kabeiros]

To both, some look more Balkan others more Medish.

[Geni]

I think northern neighbors...but only mainland greeks, islands greeks like south italians..

[Sikeliot]

I think northern neighbors...but only mainland greeks, islands greeks like south italians..

This is my opinion.

[Hadouken]

sikeliot convinced me

i think mainland greeks overlap more with their northern neighbors :o

[Kastrioti1443]

It depends. Greek epirots, macedonians, thessalians look like tosk albanians ( excluding lab highlanders of course). The other mainland greeks look more like south italians.

When highlanders of northern Albania and Kosovar albanian villagers are included than the situation changes again.

[Trun]

I think northern neighbors...but only mainland greeks, islands greeks like south italians..

This thread is only about mainland Greeks. Even Maniots excluded.

[Sikeliot]

This thread is only about mainland Greeks. Even Maniots excluded.

Maniots look more like southern Italians, due to their partial Cretan ancestry.

[Trun]

It depends. Greek epirots, macedonians, thessalians look like tosk albanians ( excluding lab highlanders of course). The other mainland greeks look more like south italians.

I'd say the same for the abovementioned groups of Greeks and Bulgarians (from Macedonia and Thrace mostly). I'm not sure whether to add Thessalians or not though, as those I have seen are quite Med.

[Geni]

My father regions look absolut not like greeks ..(Skrapar),but my mother Gjirokaster..hm..look like mainmand greeks..but they are mixed in centuries i think ... from my father's side I do not think ,they are 24 karat albanians ,even in look

[Kastrioti1443]

I'd say the same for the abovementioned groups of Greeks and Bulgarians (from Macedonia and Thrace mostly). I'm not sure whether to add Thessalians or not though, as those I have seen are quite Med.

You are right but some thessalians can look very balkanic.

[Sikeliot]

In my town, the Greek immigrants came mainly in two waves.

The first wave was 50+ years ago and came mostly from Crete, the Aegean islands, and Cyprus.
The second was mostly people who were from mainland Greece, mostly Macedonia and the Peloponnese.

The first group gets mistaken for Italian American, or rather people find out they're Greek and say "Oh, I thought you were Italian".
The second group gets mistaken for Bulgarian immigrants, and also sometimes called "Russian".

[Hadouken]

i have a question

does peloponnese count as mainland greece ?

[Sikeliot]

i have a question

does peloponnese count as mainland greece ?

Yes.

[Trun]

The second group gets mistaken for Bulgarian immigrants, and also sometimes called "Russian".

Where are those Bulgarian immigrants, unless you live in Chicago or LA?

[cally]

Northern neighbours (Albanians, Bulgarians, Serbs, Macedonians ect.)

[Sikeliot]

Where are those Bulgarian immigrants, unless you live in Chicago or LA?

They come here to work in the summer and then leave.

[Trun]

They come here to work in the summer and then leave.

If I remember correctly, you have posted a few of them here and not all are ethnic Bulgarians.

[Sikeliot]

If I remember correctly, you have posted a few of them here and not all are ethnic Bulgarians.

Those were people I knew from school.

[Casandrinos]

50% each

But if you consider Asia Minor Greeks as part of the mainland then it's about 70-80% for S.Italians (although they aren't much alike most of the times they look very Greek or Anatolian'').

[Sikeliot]

50% each

But if you consider Asia Minor Greeks as part of the mainland then it's about 70-80% for S.Italians (although they aren't much alike most of the times they look very Greek or Anatolian'').

Who isn't much alike?

[Kastrioti1443]

My father regions look absolut not like greeks ..(Skrapar),but my mother Gjirokaster..hm..look like mainmand greeks..but they are mixed in centuries i think ... from my father's side I do not think ,they are 24 karat albanians ,even in look

this is how people from Skrapar highlands look like:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?110516-State-the-main-phenotypes-(-thread-12)

[Trun]

Those were people I knew from school.

I don't know. I remember you posting a family (one year ago or so) and saying they are Bulgarians. They weren't dark; darker than the average Bulgarian but you can surely find a good number of Bulgarians as dark as them. Still, their facial features were totally out. I even investigated about their friends in Facebook and it was full of similar light gypsies, working seasonal job in America.

I don't say there aren't ethnic Bulgarians in USA. Many of my former classmates this summer worked there. But my point is that not everyone with a Bulgarian name and Bulgarian identification is ethnic Bulgarian.

[Sikeliot]

I don't know. I remember you posting a family (one year ago or so) and saying they are Bulgarians. They weren't dark; darker than the average Bulgarian but you can surely find a good number of Bulgarians as dark as them. Still, their facial features were totally out. I even investigated about their friends in Facebook and it was full of similar light gypsies, working seasonal job in America.

I don't say there aren't ethnic Bulgarians in USA. Many of my former classmates this summer worked there. But my point is that not everyone with a Bulgarian name and Bulgarian identification is ethnic Bulgarian.

Well the mainland Greeks here look what many would call "Eastern European", so I assume the Bulgarians here that they get mistaken for do too. But in reality they all probably just look Balkan.

[Casandrinos]

Who isn't much alike?


Asia Minor Greeks and Southern Italians.

[Sikeliot]

Asia Minor Greeks and Southern Italians.

Asia Minor Greeks look actually Anatolian to me.
The ones who look southern Italian are Aegean islanders and Cypriots.

[Trun]

Three of the guys (those who aren't negroes of course) are Bulgarians who worked in America. It's not easy to find a group of three Greeks who look like this, surely.

Don't quote the pic.

[Sikeliot]

The one on the right looks Greek.

[Trun]

The one on the right looks Greek.

It's 1 of 3 who has relatively mainstream look in Greece :D If I post 3 Southern Italians, they all would look mainstream in Greece.

Not that I say this is the most typical group of 3 Bulgarians, but it's nothing unusual either.

[Sikeliot]

It's 1 of 3 who has relatively mainstream look in Greece :D If I post 3 Southern Italians, they all would look mainstream in Greece.


Here are 3 Sicilians. Do they look mainstream Greek?

https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/1045209_10200885016241429_1990802924_n.jpg

[Trun]

Here are 3 Sicilians. Do they look mainstream Greek?

More so than the 3 Bulgarians.

[bimo]

Those were people I knew from school.

even if they said to you "i am bulgarian" this does not mean they are really bulgarians , gipsy from bulgaria when they go abroad often hide they are gipsy and say just "we are bulgarians"

not that greeks look like gipsy , but the bulgarians you had post sometimes aren't ethnic bulgarians

[Casandrinos]

Asia Minor Greeks look actually Anatolian to me.
The ones who look southern Italian are Aegean islanders and Cypriots.


Whatever their look is, it's more common to find similar people in Sicily than Albania/Bulgaria. And that's why most immigrants from the Balkans presume Greeks as dark even if the native Greeks (actual Balkaners) aren't very different from them. :)

[Sikeliot]

Whatever their look is, it's more common to find similar people in Sicily than Albania/Bulgaria. And that's why most immigrants from the Balkans presume Greeks as dark even if the native Greeks (actual Balkaners) aren't very different from them. :)

Who do you think are the Greeks that are closest to what people stereotype? I am starting to get the sense that people think all of Greeks look like how Cypriots, Pontians, and Anatolian Greeks look... although I think Pontians can fit in the Balkans, they just have a bit of a Caucasian vibe. Like Greek mixed with Georgians.

One difference between Sicily and any part of Greece, is I have never seen Greeks who look like the stereotype Jew.
I've never seen a Greek look like this: http://z.about.com/d/comedians/1/0/j/2/-/-/tammypescatelli.jpg

[Kastrioti1443]

Anyways average gheg ( highlander and kosovar albanian) looks like this:

http://www.zemrashqiptare.net/Foto/12Deshmoret-Llap.jpg



http://radiokosovaelire.com/uploads/Deshmoret/BFazliuARrahmani.jpg



http://radiokosovaelire.com/uploads/Analiza/BTahiri3.jpg



http://pashtriku.beepworld.de/files/deshmoret/2011/afrim_zhitia/afrim_zhitia_dhe_fahri_fazliu_perkujtim_pashtriku. jpg





http://pashtriku.beepworld.de/files/Fotodemo.1981/therande_81/adem_demaci_sejdi_gega_sheradin_berisha_zeqir_gerv alla.jpg





http://www.yllpress.com/fotografite/artikujt/afrim_zhitia_emer_i_madh_i_luf_2.jpg






https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/KsWl7_IIs19zQuJIV51LVpCvTkuH7L2001jbIeJAIU4





http://gazetadita.al/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/007251-1024x687.jpg

[Casandrinos]

Who do you think are the Greeks that are closest to what people stereotype? I am starting to get the sense that people think all of Greeks look like how Cypriots, Pontians, and Anatolian Greeks look... although I think Pontians can fit in the Balkans, they just have a bit of a Caucasian vibe. Like Greek mixed with Georgians.

One difference between Sicily and any part of Greece, is I have never seen Greeks who look like the stereotype Jew.
I've never seen a Greek look like this: http://z.about.com/d/comedians/1/0/j/2/-/-/tammypescatelli.jpg


The dark stereotype is more logical to dominate since people tend to view others based on the characteristics that separates from them. But, it isn't totally absurd if you think about it most of the islanders and all the Anatolians/Pontians live in the 2 largest cities Athens and Thessaloniki which make up 70% of the Greek populance. Keep in mind that native Greeks also look dark to a degree . I would say most Greeks fit the stereotype.

The woman you posted looks Jewish . Apart from Cyprus the rest of the Greeks doesn't have any connection with the Levant.

If you ask me how did this type appeared in Sicily, well that's a mystery:p.

[Sikeliot]

T
If you ask me how did this type appeared in Sicily, well that's a mystery:p.

That's an easy one; the Phoenicians and Carthaginians, who were able to at one point successfully conquer all of Sicily except the east coast, which remained Greek. And indeed, that phenotype does not exist as much on the east coast as in say, Trapani.

[Sikeliot]

Bump.

[Hellenas]

I am starting to get the sense that people think all of Greeks look like how Cypriots, Pontians, and Anatolian Greeks look...


Asia Minor Greeks look actually Anatolian to me.

Yeah, sure, your just in ignorance...


http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n606/Hellenas1977/Hellas1/AsiaMinorGreeks3.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Cappadocian_Greeks_Kayseri.JPG

Original Asia Minor Greeks.

http://mikrasiatis.gr/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/epi1.jpg

http://mikrasiatis.gr/wp-content/gallery/epidavros-mikras/epi2.jpg

http://mikrasiatis.gr/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/mikrasiates-serron-xania.jpg

http://mikrasiatis.gr/wp-content/gallery/rizes2013/rizes00.jpg

http://mikrasiatis.gr/wp-content/gallery/rizes2013/rizes2.jpg

http://mikrasiatis.gr/wp-content/gallery/rizes2013/rizes1.jpg

http://mikrasiatis.gr/wp-content/gallery/rizes2013/rizes3.jpg

http://mikrasiatis.gr/wp-content/gallery/rizes2013/rizes4.jpg

http://mikrasiatis.gr/wp-content/gallery/rizes2013/rizes5.jpg

http://mikrasiatis.gr/wp-content/gallery/rizes2013/rizes9.jpg
Modern Asia Minor Greeks(usually mixed with mainland Greeks).
Note: Most women are dyed blond.

Population strength

"Today, about 40% of the population of Greece claims full or partial descent from the Asia Minor refugees; as does an almost equal percentage of diasporan Greeks."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_refugees#Population_strength

Greeks are not widely mixed with their neighbors (http://hellas2010.proboards.com/thread/102/updated-greeks-widely-mixed-neighbors)

The origin of the Hellenes (http://hellas2010.proboards.com/thread/24/updated-origin-hellenes-aris-poulianos)

Are Greek Meds Orientalid mixed 'East Mediterraneans'? (http://hellas2010.proboards.com/thread/115/greek-meds-orientalid-mixed-mediterraneans)

http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n606/Hellenas1977/5648ccac-9519-4f3e-9dc7-8e3ac72ad9b1_zps33ed5022.jpg
Typical Turk(Med-Armenoid).

ANATOLID (Anadolid)

Mostly Armenoid blend with Mediterranid (mainly the old Cappadocid strain) which constitutes the prevalent racial type among the Turks (of Turkey). Anatolids are usually finer-featured, more leptomorphic and somewhat longer-headed than Armenids proper.

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/gl-anatolid.jpg
Anatolid Turk

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/gloss1.htm#ANATOLID

CAPPADOCID

A Mediterranid variety, prevalent in Asia Minor and adjacent areas in prehistoric times; nowadays it has largely blended with Armenoids (this blend is known as Anatolid).

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/cappadocian.jpg
Cappadocid type (from The Races of Europe by Carleton S. Coon)

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/gloss1.htm#CAPPADOCIAN

Anatolids and Cappadocids are almost nonexistent in Greece.

E. The genetic composition of Greek refugees from Asia Minor.

At the beginning of the twentieth century, some 2.000.000 Greeks were living outside Greece in Asia Minor. The presence of this large Greek population had been established on the West coasts of Asia Minor by 800 BC and spread gradually northward along the Blac Sea coast. These Greek populations maintained their Greek identity throughout the centuries, even under the Otoman rule. They remained separated from the neighbouring populations by religious and language boundaries. The areas of Pontus and Cappadochia especially were centers of Greek culture. The first world war was followed by the Greek - Turkish war. In 1923 a treaty (Treaty of Lausanne) was signed between Greece and Turkey for the exchange of minorities. Before and after that Treaty a considerable number of Greek Christian refugees from Asia Minor, Pontus, Constantinople and other areas emigrated to Greece. Of these, 700.000 settled in Macedonia and West Thrace. About 25% of the population of Macedonia were, in 1928, of immigrant origin. It is difficult now, more than two generations later, to distinguish the autochthonous and immigrant populations. One of the 1047 communities where refugees were settled was Platy. The village of Platy is situated in the middle of Greek Macedonia in the province of Hemathia. The genetic composition of this population was studied by Tills et al (6). Of the 1558 inhabitants in 1973, 1038 donated blood for genetic tests. Blood grouping tests and electrophoretic analysis were performed at the laboratory of Biological Anthropology of the British Museum of Natural History at London in collaboration with the Greek Red Cross. Tests were carried out for ten blood group systems (ABO, MNSs, Rhesus, Pj, Lutheran, Kell, Duffy, Kidd, Wright and Redin), three plasma proteins (Haptoglobin, Transferin and Haemoglobin), and 8 red cell enzymes (ACPH, AK, ADA, EsD, G6PD, PGM, 6-PGD and PHI). The findings from the Platy sample have been compared to those of Greek mainland, Turkey and Bulgaria. When examining a population, such as the Platy population, system by system it is difficult to conclude whether the particular population resembles either the A or the B population. Theoretically, one must simultaneously examine about ten genetic systems. So, the genetic distance was calculated (6) using data for the following 8 genetic systems: ABO, MNSs, Rhesus, Haptoglobin, Acid Phosphatase, 6-phosphoglucomutase dehydrogenase, Adenyulate Kinase and Adenosive deaminase. These were the only systems for which data were available for all four populations. Using the appropriate mathematics, the genetic distances were calculated among the Platy sample, the mainland Greeks, the Turks and the Bulgarians and the obtained results are shown in Fig 2. As can be seen, the differences between the four populations are small, but the Platy sample appears to be slightly closer in its relationship to the Greeks than to the Turks. Furthermore, the refugees of Platy are closer to the Turks, than to the Bulgarians. The incidence of carriers of b-Mediterranean and sickle cell anaemia as well as of the glucose-6-phosphate-dehydrogenase deficiency have been investigated in the sample of 410 individuals from Pontus by Sinakos et al (1975) at the 1st Clinic of Pathology at the Aristotle University of Thessaloniki, headed by professor D Valtis. Low frequency of G-6-PD deficiencies (2%) and b-Mediterranean anaemia (3,7%), and only one carrier of the Hb-S variant were found. The distribution of the moderate pthalassaemia was heterogenous and correlated with the topography of malarious areas from where they had immigrated in the past.

http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n606/Hellenas1977/Hellas1/GeneticDistance.jpg

THE GENETIC COMPOSITION OF GREECE (http://hellas2010.proboards.com/thread/48/genetic-composition-greece)


"Anatolian" Greeks are not Anatolids.