Calling on all Kavkazians, need info.

[Stefan_Dusan]

What do you know about the Dargwa people of Dagestan? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dargins

According to wikipedia they are 58% haplogroup I: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group

I read somewhere that the only variant of haplogroup I found outside of Europe in any numbers is I2c (mine) so I'm guessing they all belong to I2c. I maybe wrong.

But I have no idea about them, and was wondering if you know something about them. Do they have any connections with either Armenians, Georgians or Ossetians (who also have I2c but nowhere in those numbers)?

[Jacobus]

What do you know about the Dargwa people of Dagestan? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dargins

According to wikipedia they are 58% haplogroup I: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group

I read somewhere that the only variant of haplogroup I found outside of Europe in any numbers is I2c (mine) so I'm guessing they all belong to I2c. I maybe wrong.

But I have no idea about them, and was wondering if you know something about them. Do they have any connections with either Armenians, Georgians or Ossetians (who also have I2c but nowhere in those numbers)?

They belong to haplogroup I * (0,58) and the caucasian race - that's all what wikipedia says.
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%86%D1%8B

Can't help you, sorry.

[Black Wolf]

What do you know about the Dargwa people of Dagestan? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dargins

According to wikipedia they are 58% haplogroup I: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group

I read somewhere that the only variant of haplogroup I found outside of Europe in any numbers is I2c (mine) so I'm guessing they all belong to I2c. I maybe wrong.

But I have no idea about them, and was wondering if you know something about them. Do they have any connections with either Armenians, Georgians or Ossetians (who also have I2c but nowhere in those numbers)?

It looks like we are both distantly related to many peoples of the Caucasus anciently. I2 (I2c most likely) seems to be found all over but especially among certain groups like Ossetians and some Dagestani groups and my own haplogroup J2a is found all over the Caucasus but especially among the Vainakhs (Ingush and Chechens). :)

[Stefan_Dusan]

It looks like we are both distantly related to many peoples of the Caucasus anciently. I2 (I2c most likely) seems to be found all over but especially among certain groups like Ossetians and some Dagestani groups and my own haplogroup J2a is found all over the Caucasus but especially among the Vainakhs (Ingush and Chechens). :)

Well if Hovann is right then I'm medieval descendent xD I guess further tests will reveal but if they are truly I2c, this will be the highest concentrate of this very rare haplogroup found so far.... And maybe explain where the Armenian and Georgian noble families came from?

[Black Wolf]

Well if Hovann is right then I'm medieval descendent xD I guess further tests will reveal but if they are truly I2c, this will be the highest concentrate of this very rare haplogroup found so far.... And maybe explain where the Armenian and Georgian noble families came from?

You very well could be a descendant of that noble Armenian family Bagratuni. Or it could be the other way around. I2c originated in Anatolia or the Transcaucasus and then migrated later on to the North Caucasus and became very common among certain groups due to isolation and genetic drift.

[Illancha]

Can't really tell you much other than the fact that they are one of the indigenous peoples of the Caucasus and not migratory people who settled there. This means they have likely been there for a very long time, several millenia.

I would say it's extremely unlikely that they are ancestrally related to Armenians and Ossetians, but just possibly related to Georgians, since they also are indigenous, although even that would be a big stretch. Of course, we can assume that cases of intermixing although very rare, especially in ancient times, did occur.

If you're trying to link this with what you were told about your Bagratid heritage I would speculate on two possibilities. In olden times in the Caucasus, people of a certain ethnicity living in foreign lands were most likely exiles from their own communities. They could have been exiled for a range of reasons, escaping blood feuds, committing crimes, evading shame, etc. It is possible, assuming that you have Dargin ancestry, that your ancestors were exiled from their native homes and settled in Armenia later on founding the Bagratid dynasty. The other possibility is simply that royal or aristocratic families tend to be 'imported' from foreign peoples.

[Stefan_Dusan]

You very well could be a descendant of that noble Armenian family Bagratuni. Or it could be the other way around. I2c originated in Anatolia or the Transcaucasus and then migrated later on to the North Caucasus and became very common among certain groups due to isolation and genetic drift.

I heard it originated in the rhine valley in Germany some 22,000 years ago and spread west, one branch in Scotland. The other made it to the Kavkaz. And then of course some of this made migration back to Balkans.

Now what STRs say is me and these Armenians have common male ancestor in medieval times. Since this noble family has been discovered to be I2c, and recorded to 800s, it would be quite a stretch if my ancestors introduced it to the Kavkaz versus the other way around xD

[Black Wolf]

I heard it originated in the rhine valley in Germany some 22,000 years ago and spread west, one branch in Scotland. The other made it to the Kavkaz. And then of course some of this made migration back to Balkans.

Now what STRs say is me and these Armenians have common male ancestor in medieval times. Since this noble family has been discovered to be I2c, and recorded to 800s, it would be quite a stretch if my ancestors introduced it to the Kavkaz versus the other way around xD

Hard to say really. Either way it is all quite interesting.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Can't really tell you much other than the fact that they are one of the indigenous peoples of the Caucasus and not migratory people who settled there. This means they have likely been there for a very long time, several millenia.

I would say it's extremely unlikely that they are ancestrally related to Armenians and Ossetians, but just possibly related to Georgians, since they also are indigenous, although even that would be a big stretch. Of course, we can assume that cases of intermixing although very rare, especially in ancient times, did occur.

If you're trying to link this with what you were told about your Bagratid heritage I would speculate on two possibilities. In olden times in the Caucasus, people of a certain ethnicity living in foreign lands were most likely exiles from their own communities. They could have been exiled for a range of reasons, escaping blood feuds, committing crimes, evading shame, etc. It is possible, assuming that you have Dargin ancestry, that your ancestors were exiled from their native homes and settled in Armenia later on founding the Bagratid dynasty. The other possibility is simply that royal or aristocratic families tend to be 'imported' from foreign peoples.

I'm speculating because I2c is very rare in Armenians who tend to be R1b*, J2*, and E-V13. I2c is 5 or less % in Armenians and almost exclusively tied to the various descendants of this noble families. I have read some forums on this on Georgian and Armenian forums.

What is then to me is this I2c must be a newcomer from somewhere? Or just a pure coincidence that this rare haplogroup found itself in the family. But if this group is really close to 60% I2c, by far the highest concentration in the world (Crete being so far the highest with 10-15%) would be likely source...