Use of "you" and "thou" (and equivalents in other languages)

[Wulfhere]

Whilst it is a well-known fact that English (apart from a few dialects such as Yorkshire) no longer uses the singular forms "thou" "thee" and "thine" - though everyone still understands them - I'd be interested to know how it works in other languages. As I understand it German has the singular form du ("thou") but it is only used amongst friends or family members. For a start off, how do Germans decide who gets to be called du? And isn't there something similar in French, too? I'm assuming English went the same way and eventually just scrapped them altogether. Perhaps this says something about the English, and their inability to express affection for anyone, including family and close friends.

[Monolith]

In Croatian language, 'ti' (singular) is the equivalent of German 'du'. We use it when speaking to friends and family, while young people and children use it when talking to others inside their age group, regardless of whether they know each others of not. On the other hand, 'vi' (plural) is the equivalent of English 'you'. It is more formal and it is considered polite for children and adolescents to use when addressing adults, or in conversation between adults who are not friends, family or relatives.

[Treffie]

Welsh `ti` is used when addressing an individual in an informal setting, whereas `chi` is used to address groups of more than one person or someone who you are unfamiliar with.

[curiousman]

In Italian we use "tu" (sing.) and "voi" (plur.) in informal situations or when addressing young people or parents, relatives, close friends or even God (in prayers). For formal situations we switch to "Lei" (sing.) and "Loro" (plur.). Maybe it's interesting to know that during fascist regime Mussolini tried to change by law the Italian habit of using "Lei" because he thought that it was too effeminate or not enough virile ("lei" is in Italian also the feminine pronoun corresponding to English "she") and to substitute it with "Voi". Nowadays only in Southern Italy people use yet this "Voi" which sounds a bit ridiculous at least for Northern Italians.

[The Black Prince]

In Frisian (Westlauwersk) the familiar form is "do" the formal form is "jo". The familiar is very alike the English form (tho/thou) keeping in mind that "d" replaced "th" during the change from Old-Frisian and Modern-Frisian.

Also Old-Frisian "-ou" has in modern Frisian become "-û". In some modern Frisian dialects the familiar is pronounced (and written) as "dû" originating thus from directly from "thou". The pronunciation however is different "ou" or better said "û" is pronounced as the "ou" in English "you will".

Another difference is more often occurring in Frisian of conjuctions e.g. In English:"You have it" and "have you got it" is in Frisian:"Do hast it" and "Hasto it".

[The Lawspeaker]

Dutch has three forms of second person pronouns, namely u, gij and jij. In the case of gij/jij, ge/je are its unstressed variants (whereas jou is the accusative of jij and – confusingly – u also serves as the accusative of gij). Corresponding possessive pronouns are uw and jouw (or je in its unstressed form). In Dutch, the T–V distinction is difficult as it relies mainly on (personal) status.
U is the formal pronoun used in all Dutch speaking regions, whereas jij or gij are used as the informal personal pronouns to address someone. The choice between jij or gij varies from region to region. Jij is preferred in writing in both the Netherlands and Belgium, but when speech is concerned speakers in the Netherlands tend to use jij and Dutch-speakers in Belgium tend to use gij. The southern part of the Netherlands (mainly Brabant) also uses gij, but not when addressing people from outside Brabant, as the majority of the Netherlands uses jij. Religious Dutch speakers address God using either gij or U; jij is never used.
The pronoun je can also be used impersonally, corresponding to the English generic you. The more formal Dutch term corresponding to English generic you or one is men.
In Dutch the formal personal pronoun is used for older people or for people with a higher or equal status, unless the addressed makes it clear he wants to be spoken to with the informal pronoun. Unlike for example in German, there is no defined line (in the case of German, roughly when someone passes the age of 16) in which everyone, apart from family, is addressed with the formal pronoun. A Dutch speaker might be addressed by jij by his cousin, but u by his children, although many people use jij to address their parents (and jij is sometimes even used to address grandparents).


I was in no mood to write it so I just copied wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%E2%80%93V_distinction#Dutch).

[Tabiti]

We have "ти" (ti) for you (singular, informal) and "Вие" (Wie) plural, as well as the official form.

[SuuT]

I imagine one would have to be really bored to do so, but this (http://www.reference-global.com/doi/abs/10.1515/ijsl.1995.115.85) is a good read on formality and informality in both written and spoken Norwegian.

[Murphy]

In Glasgow we use 'you bastard' in formal settings and 'ya kunt' in informal settings. Common endearing term for children to say to their parents whilst tapping a cigarette.

[Electronic God-Man]

As I understand it German has the singular form du ("thou") but it is only used amongst friends or family members. For a start off, how do Germans decide who gets to be called du?

Germans only use Sie (formal) when they are speaking to elders or someone clearly in a level of authority above them. Du is used for everyone else.

Formal Sie may have been used more commonly in the past, but it has gotten much more relaxed. I was laughed at by my German roommate for addressing him as "Sie". He just laughed and said "DU!"

[Arne]

Germans only use Sie (formal) when they are speaking to elders or someone clearly in a level of authority above them. Du is used for everyone else.

Formal Sie may have been used more commonly in the past, but it has gotten much more relaxed. I was laughed at by my German roommate for addressing him as "Sie". He just laughed and said "DU!"
Because you two indivudals are not unknown.
If you walk down the Street you would ask for the time like "Können Sie mir sagen..wie spät es ist"..
"Können sie mir weiterhelfen" If you are confused.
But for your german roommate you use the form "du"..
In your Family it´s uncommon to use "Sie"...
Only for People either you know or Respective Persons like your chief.
But the Influence in Company´s is going to be weaker than in the Past.
Many Chiefs favorize to speak familliar....
But it also depends on them..

[Svanhild]

As I understand it German has the singular form du ("thou") but it is only used amongst friends or family members. For a start off, how do Germans decide who gets to be called du?
Family members or close friends use "Du" among each other. It comes natural. Almost all other cases are a product of negotiations. You ask the higher-ranked or the elder if you can use "Du" or if you should stick to "Sie". We call it the question of Per-Du and Per-Sie. If the other side is fine with the offer you can use "Du". The other way round works analogical.
The fact of the matter is that you can get along exceptionally pally with your boss for months or years but as long as there was no offer from his or your side to be Per-Du with each other (and mutual agreement) you should stick to "Sie". If you want to ask for the time on the streets you should use "Sie". People don't like it if a nobody approaches and speaks to them in the personal buddie form.


Germans only use Sie (formal) when they are speaking to elders or someone clearly in a level of authority above them. Du is used for everyone else.
That's false. You have to use "Sie" for people of the same age or in public until there's an other regulation. Everything else makes you disagreeable. The talk between fellow students is different, of course. :wink

Formal Sie may have been used more commonly in the past, but it has gotten much more relaxed.
If you want to show good manners stick to "Sie". Our alien ghetto kids don't know the word "Sie" and it could be a good idea to behave differently. To show that you're not one of them, to show that you have some manners and class.

The problem for foreigners is the different form of words:

"Können Sie mir helfen?" (Can you help me?)

but

"Kannst du mir helfen?" (Can you help me?)

Können =| Kannst.

"Würden Sie mir bitte sagen wie ich zum Bahnhof komme? (Can you tell me the way to the railway station?)

but

"Würdest du mir bitte sagen wie ich zum Bahnhof komme? (Can you tell me the way to the railway station?)

Würden =| Würdest

et cetera, et cetera

[W. R.]

In Croatian language, 'ti' (singular) is the equivalent of German 'du'. We use it when speaking to friends and family, while young people and children use it when talking to others inside their age group, regardless of whether they know each others of not. On the other hand, 'vi' (plural) is the equivalent of English 'you'. It is more formal and it is considered polite for children and adolescents to use when addressing adults, or in conversation between adults who are not friends, family or relatives.Generally the same can be said about the Belarusian language (ty/Vy).

There exist some contracted forms of "vaša miłaść" (something like "your grace"), like in the saying Ja Vašać, i ty Vašać, chto ž nam chleba napašać? (I am "your grace", and you are "your grace", who will plough the earth for bread then?) Linguist Dr. Jan Stankievič saw in "Vy" some foreign influence and believed that in usage it must be replaced by "Vaša[ć]". The verb after Vaša[ć] takes the plural form: Vaša chočacie instead of Vaša chočaš.

[Wulfhere]

In Frisian (Westlauwersk) the familiar form is "do" the formal form is "jo". The familiar is very alike the English form (tho/thou) keeping in mind that "d" replaced "th" during the change from Old-Frisian and Modern-Frisian.

Also Old-Frisian "-ou" has in modern Frisian become "-û". In some modern Frisian dialects the familiar is pronounced (and written) as "dû" originating thus from directly from "thou". The pronunciation however is different "ou" or better said "û" is pronounced as the "ou" in English "you will".

Another difference is more often occurring in Frisian of conjuctions e.g. In English:"You have it" and "have you got it" is in Frisian:"Do hast it" and "Hasto it".

And in English "thou hast it" and "hast thou it?" Because in English if "thou" is used then the form of the next word changes accordingly - "thou hast" "thou dost" "thou art" etc. It's funny how although no one really uses these forms any more (except Yorkshore folk) they are all still a part of the language and are understood - from their use in Shakespeare and the Bible, no doubt.

Thanks anyway for all the responses - it seems that all European languages have retained this informal and formal form. The question is, why did English drop it?

[Osweo]

In Italian we use "tu" (sing.) and "voi" (plur.) in informal situations or when addressing young people or parents, relatives, close friends or even God (in prayers). For formal situations we switch to "Lei" (sing.) and "Loro" (plur.).
Ah, so there's familiar single, familiar plural, and formal singular+plural! Three alternatives! Crazy. :D And like Castilian, like I'm in the middle of learning now! Tu - 'thou', vosotros - familar plural, Usted - formal 'you'. Usted can be written simply Vd. It takes verbs in the third person, for example 'Have you found your hat? becomes 'Has Your Grace found his hat?' ?Ha Vd hallado su sombrero?
Usted is a contraction of Vuestra Merced, i.e. 'Your Grace', and in this respect is very similar to the form seen in Belorussian here:
There exist some contracted forms of "vaša miłaść" (something like "your grace"), The verb after Vaša[ć] takes the plural form: Vaša chočacie instead of Vaša chočaš.
Amazing!

Maybe it's interesting to know that during fascist regime Mussolini tried to change by law the Italian habit of using "Lei" because he thought that it was too effeminate or not enough virile ("lei" is in Italian also the feminine pronoun corresponding to English "she") and to substitute it with "Voi". Nowadays only in Southern Italy people use yet this "Voi" which sounds a bit ridiculous at least for Northern Italians.
Hoho! I agree with Musso! ;)

like in the saying Ja Vašać, i ty Vašać, chto ž nam chleba napašać? (I am "your grace", and you are "your grace", who will plough the earth for bread then?) Linguist Dr. Jan Stankievič saw in "Vy" some foreign influence and believed that in usage it must be replaced by "Vaša[ć]".
Stankevich was obviously a bitter fool, and so hateful of Russians that he'd glady 'cut off his nose to spite his face'. ;) 'Vy' is proto-Slavonic, and as old as the hills. This feudal expression Ваша Милость is clearly a late graft onto the language, and dates from a time of social rigidity and exploitation. I'd chuck it now. Me and Benito. :D

Russian is obviously the same as Belorussian Ty and Vy. Vy is for strangers and bosses and so on. Ty is friends, though a level of formality if only in this respect can be maintained if the familiar person is somewhat senior to you in age. In-laws are an interesting example, and I never got past 'Vy' with them, though they'd call me 'Ty'. You have to wait for an invitation to use the familiar form, like Svanhild outlined for German.

In my own dialect, 'thou' is dying a slow death. It's pronounced more like 'Tha', really, which is easier to put in natural speed everyday sentences. 'Tha knows' is a little ending you can put on a statement to encourage feelings of mutuality and comradeship, but is rare now. The final S is a worn down remnant of the original -est; 'Thou knowest'. The formal 'Dost thou know?' has become 'Does tha know?' but a contraction of standard English has given the more common 'Dyerknow?'

About usage, D.H. Lawrence wrote and interesting thing about this in his novel 'Sons and Lovers', set in the Black Country I recall.

You took over in England due to emulation of courtly style. :( Damned snobs! I don't know why it happened in posh speech at first, but I suppose it dates to the late Stuart / early Georgian period, no? A time of great affectation in manners, coeval with Louis XIV and so on in France.

Now that 'you' covers all situations in urban speech where I'm from, inventiveness has solved the problem of how to distinguish the plural from the singular, and has come up with yous, though you'll find this in no dictionary! "Shut up, yous!" is a phrase you'll hear a lot in Manchester, but I believe it's used in the wider world too (independent origin, by similar analogical reasoning?) like in America. Even more local is the alternate you lot. "Have you lot seen the time? Get to bed!" :p

[Wulfhere]

Ah, so there's familiar single, familiar plural, and formal singular+plural! Three alternatives! Crazy. :D And like Castilian, like I'm in the middle of learning now! Tu - 'thou', vosotros - familar plural, Usted - formal 'you'. Usted can be written simply Vd. It takes verbs in the third person, for example 'Have you found your hat? becomes 'Has Your Grace found his hat?' ?Ha Vd hallado su sombrero?
Usted is a contraction of Vuestra Merced, i.e. 'Your Grace', and in this respect is very similar to the form seen in Belorussian here:
Amazing!

Hoho! I agree with Musso! ;)

Stankevich was obviously a bitter fool, and so hateful of Russians that he'd glady 'cut off his nose to spite his face'. ;) 'Vy' is proto-Slavonic, and as old as the hills. This feudal expression Ваша Милость is clearly a late graft onto the language, and dates from a time of social rigidity and exploitation. I'd chuck it now. Me and Benito. :D

Russian is obviously the same as Belorussian Ty and Vy. Vy is for strangers and bosses and so on. Ty is friends, though a level of formality if only in this respect can be maintained if the familiar person is somewhat senior to you in age. In-laws are an interesting example, and I never got past 'Vy' with them, though they'd call me 'Ty'. You have to wait for an invitation to use the familiar form, like Svanhild outlined for German.

In my own dialect, 'thou' is dying a slow death. It's pronounced more like 'Tha', really, which is easier to put in natural speed everyday sentences. 'Tha knows' is a little ending you can put on a statement to encourage feelings of mutuality and comradeship, but is rare now. The final S is a worn down remnant of the original -est; 'Thou knowest'. The formal 'Dost thou know?' has become 'Does tha know?' but a contraction of standard English has given the more common 'Dyerknow?'

About usage, D.H. Lawrence wrote and interesting thing about this in his novel 'Sons and Lovers', set in the Black Country I recall.

You took over in England due to emulation of courtly style. :( Damned snobs! I don't know why it happened in posh speech at first, but I suppose it dates to the late Stuart / early Georgian period, no? A time of great affectation in manners, coeval with Louis XIV and so on in France.

Now that 'you' covers all situations in urban speech where I'm from, inventiveness has solved the problem of how to distinguish the plural from the singular, and has come up with yous, though you'll find this in no dictionary! "Shut up, yous!" is a phrase you'll hear a lot in Manchester, but I believe it's used in the wider world too (independent origin, by similar analogical reasoning?) like in America. Even more local is the alternate you lot. "Have you lot seen the time? Get to bed!" :p

Interesting, I had always associated the plural form "yous" with the Irish. Since I'm quite close to the Black Country, I know some of their lingo. They use "yum" for "you" (singular) and "yam", for "you am" (="you are").

[Arne]

Then Mercia seems to be one of the Darker Parts..

[Wulfhere]

Then Mercia seems to be one of the Darker Parts..

The Black Country is indeed in Mercia, and is one of our most distinctive - and oldest - dialects.

[W. R.]

The verb after Vaša[ć] takes the plural form: Vaša chočacie instead of Vaša chočaš.Oops. I was wrong. The verb can take either plural or singular form.

Scanned page with Vaša[ć] from Dr. Jan Stankievič's dictionary: http://i44.tinypic.com/xmllcn.jpg
Stankevich was obviously a bitter fool, and so hateful of Russians that he'd glady 'cut off his nose to spite his face'. ;) 'Vy' is proto-Slavonic, and as old as the hills.Er... Dr. Jan Stankievič was obsessed with the purity of the Belarusian language and if he had believed that "Vy" was natively Belarusian, he would have never made that statement. :)

Even if "Vy" is proto-Slavonic, by the times when the New Belarusian language became to form it could have become obsolete. And then borrowed from Russian. It is like with the word "podźvih" (act of bravery). This word existed in the Old Belarusian language but by the times of the New Belarusian language it disappeared and was newly borrowed from Russian.

[Absinthe]

Greek: esi/εσύ (singular) - esis/εσείς (plural, and formal singular).

It is customary to address the elderly, people you just got introduced to, people of high status, customers or people who serve you, random strangers, etc, with "esis" (the formal way), and also verbs and nouns, adjectives, etc, need to be adjusted.

Nowadays people are getting ruder but still you'll raise a few eyebrows if you don't use the formal singular with strangers. You're also supposed to say "good morning", "hronia polla" (a general holiday wish, for when it's a holiday) and stuff like that, before you ask something :p

[Amarantine]

In Croatian language, 'ti' (singular) is the equivalent of German 'du'. We use it when speaking to friends and family, while young people and children use it when talking to others inside their age group, regardless of whether they know each others of not. On the other hand, 'vi' (plural) is the equivalent of English 'you'. It is more formal and it is considered polite for children and adolescents to use when addressing adults, or in conversation between adults who are not friends, family or relatives.

The same is in Serbian, Bosnian, Montenegrin...of course, I don t want to say that Croatian is not uniqe and so different from the mentined languages:coffee:


hihihi

[The Ripper]

In Finnish we have it too, although I think its usage has unfortunately disappeared from every other sector of society with the exception of customer service. :D

Sinä: "you"

Te: "Thou"

[Äike]

In Estonian it's almost the same as in Finnish.

Sina/Sa: "you"

Teie/Te: "Thou"

Both are used here and I use "Thou" quite often. I find it rude if someone(stranger) approaches me to ask for time or anything like that and uses "Sina" instead of "Te".

I remember when I was in the ~3th grade, a funny thing happened to me. I accidentally said "Sina" to a teacher instead of "Te". The teacher did write into my notebook(for my mother to read) in red, that I don't respect teachers...

[The Ripper]

In Estonian it's almost the same as in Finnish.

Sina/Sa: "you"

Teie/Te: "Thou"

Both are used here and I use "Thou" quite often. I find it rude if someone(stranger) approaches me to ask for time or anything like that and uses "Sina" instead of "Te".

I remember when I was in the ~3th grade, a funny thing happened to me. I accidentally said "Sina" to a teacher instead of "Te". The teacher did write into my notebook(for my mother to read) in red, that I don't respect teachers...

Meie and teie always gets me confused. I automatically assume it is the same as meidän / teidän in Finnish (often pronounced meijän / teijän), which means ours / yours

[Eldritch]

In Finnish we have it too, although I think its usage has unfortunately disappeared from every other sector of society with the exception of customer service. :D

Sinä: "you"

Te: "Thou"

I think the armed forces are about the only sector where "te" is still used with any sort of regularity. In the service industries it has more or less disappeared, or so it seems to me at least. I groan every time at the supermarket checkout or the barber shop, etc. when some 18-year old airhead addresses an elderly person as "sä". :speechless-smiley-0

[The Ripper]

I think the armed forces are about the only sector where "te" is still used with any sort of regularity. In the service industries it has more or less disappeared, or so it seems to me at least. I groan every time at the supermarket checkout or the barber shop, etc. when some 18-year old airhead addresses an elderly person as "sä". :speechless-smiley-0

Yeah. But when you point out to afore mentioned airhead, that its good manners to address elders respectfully, he will in all likelihood view you as some kind of time-travelling fossil. It is viewed as something liberating to be disrespectful, or "equal" towards other people. In my opinion the dismantling of social customs has simply lead to ever more awkward interaction between people, especially if they do not know each other. Its as if people don't know how to behave around each other.

Btw, seems I had happily forgotten about the Army and their insistence on proper forms of addressing a superior. ;)

[Aino]

Just a small correction, thou is the old singular form and you the plural form. So the Finnish pronoun sinä corresponds to thou and te to you.

[antonio]

Ah, so there's familiar single, familiar plural, and formal singular+plural! Three alternatives! Crazy. :D And like Castilian, like I'm in the middle of learning now! Tu - 'thou', vosotros - familar plural, Usted - formal 'you'. Usted can be written simply Vd. It takes verbs in the third person, for example 'Have you found your hat? becomes 'Has Your Grace found his hat?' ?Ha Vd hallado su sombrero?
Usted is a contraction of Vuestra Merced, i.e. 'Your Grace', and in this respect is very similar to the form seen in Belorussian here:
Amazing!

Hoho! I agree with Musso! ;)


First of all, thanks for naming my, our language, the correct (European) way. Second, 'vosotros' evolved from medieval 'vos' (the original Castilian form still present in Galician)
Third, 'usted' evolved from medieval "vuesa/vuestra merced' (your...¿grace?), as Galician evolved 'vostede' from 'vosa mercede'.
Four, in Galician, the ortodox 'tú' evolved misteriously in certain areas into a strange 'ti': to the point that last has becomed normative.

[The Ripper]

Just a small correction, thou is the old singular form and you the plural form. So the Finnish pronoun sinä corresponds to thou and te to you.

My bad. :D

[Kanasyuvigi]

In Croatian language, 'ti' (singular) is the equivalent of German 'du'. We use it when speaking to friends and family, while young people and children use it when talking to others inside their age group, regardless of whether they know each others of not. On the other hand, 'vi' (plural) is the equivalent of English 'you'. It is more formal and it is considered polite for children and adolescents to use when addressing adults, or in conversation between adults who are not friends, family or relatives.
The same goes for the Bulgarian language. (surprise) But a curious fact is that we have four (4!) different dialect forms for "I" - the official form "Аз" (Az) and three other dialect forms - Яс, Я, Язе (Yas, Ya, Yaze)

[Monolith]

The same is in Serbian, Bosnian, Montenegrin...of course, I don t want to say that Croatian is not uniqe and so different from the mentined languages

Well, I can speak only for my own language.

The same goes for the Bulgarian language. (surprise) But a curious fact is that we have four (4!) different dialect forms for "I" - the official form "Аз" (Az) and three other dialect forms - Яс, Я, Язе (Yas, Ya, Yaze)
Interesting. This "Az" is quite archaic for Croatian standards. I remember seeing it used on the Baška tablet (http://www.croatianhistory.net/etf/baska.html) (12th century).

[Lenny]

Formal Sie may have been used more commonly in the past, but it has gotten much more relaxed [and so Sie is less common].

Thanks anyway for all the responses - it seems that all European languages have retained this informal and formal form. The question is, why did English drop it?
Interestingly, English kept its formal form of the word (You), not the informal (thou). Whereas German is moving away from its formal "you" (Sie).

Why? --
Personally I'd have to bet that grammatically it was easier on people to just drop away "thou", with all its confusing verb endings. 'You' is so much easier to conjugate (often it is the same as other forms: You are, We are, They are).

I strongly suspect that is why Latin-American Spanish completely abandoned the word "Vosotros" (you-plural informal), too. All its verb endings are completely out of left-field and not similar to other forms at all.

While in Europe some time ago, I happened to befriend some Spaniards. When speaking with them, they were kind of confused by why I kept calling them "Ustedes" :) [you-plural <'formal' in Spain>], which is the only way someone who learned Latin-American Spanish knows how to refer to a group of people. (I don't even remember the conjugations for vosotros).

[Lenny]

as long as there was no offer from his or your side to be Per-Du with each other (and mutual agreement) you should stick to "Sie". If you want to ask for the time on the streets you should use "Sie". People don't like it if a nobody approaches and speaks to them in the personal buddie form.I once witnessed an argument between a German man aged ~45 and a young-guy aged not over 25 on the subway in Berlin: The young-guy was with a group of friends, and he asked the man to move his seat so they could sit together, but he used "Du". The man began scolding the younger-fellow for addressing him as "Du". The young-guy was super-arrogant about it and instead of just saying sorry kept arguing. He started to use terms like the street-slang "Alter" to refer to the middle-aged man.

The young-guy had been drinking...:lmao

[Don]

Interestingly, English kept its formal form of the word (You), not the informal (thou). Whereas German is moving away from its formal "you" (Sie).

Why? --
Personally I'd have to bet that grammatically it was easier on people to just drop away "thou", with all its confusing verb endings. 'You' is so much easier to conjugate (often it is the same as other forms: You are, We are, They are).

I strongly suspect that is why Latin-American Spanish completely abandoned the word "Vosotros" (you-plural informal), too. All its verb endings are completely out of left-field and not similar to other forms at all.

While in Europe some time ago, I happened to befriend some Spaniards. When speaking with them, they were kind of confused by why I kept calling them "Ustedes" :) [you-plural <'formal' in Spain>], which is the only way someone who learned Latin-American Spanish knows how to refer to a group of people. (I don't even remember the conjugations for vosotros).

In Ibero-América the castilian we taught them is some kind of degenerated in some ways (as all languages do, but in particular forms in FOREIGNER or non original lands, with native substrates, as the proper castilian from Latin) and crystallized in time in some other way.

This last is the example of Ustedes (Vuestras-Mercedes) and Vos.





Ustedes

Spanish forms also differ regarding second-person plural pronouns. "Usted" (Ud.) was initially the written abbreviation of "vuestra merced" (your grace). The Spanish accents of Latin America have only one form of the second-person plural for daily use, ustedes (formal or familiar, as the case may be, though vosotros non-formal usage can sometimes appear in poetry and rhetorical or literary style). In Spain there are two forms — ustedes (formal) and vosotros (familiar). The pronoun vosotros is the plural form of tú in most of Spain, but in the Americas (and in certain southern Spanish cities such as Cádiz and in the Canary Islands) it is replaced with ustedes.
It is notable that the use of ustedes for the informal plural "you" in southern Spain does not follow the usual rule for pronoun–verb agreement; e.g., while the formal form for "you go", ustedes van, uses the third-person plural form of the verb, in Cádiz or Seville the informal form is constructed as ustedes vais, using the second-person plural of the verb. In the Canary Islands, though, the usual pronoun–verb agreement is preserved in most cases.

That's the reason, they treated you in a familiar tone and the "ustedes" instead of "vosotros" in those situations is an insistence to keep the distance of the interlocutor or a southamerican "latino" learned.

The same happens with the pronunciation of C and Z. Quite ridiculous for foreigners since it reminds to childs and babies, but that's the way we, real Spanish or Castilian, and how the Castilians Speak.

But for us, the ridiculous is the whole "latino-american" languages and a foreigner speaking non-castilian but a "pseudoCastilian" taught by some mexican or argentinian.
That is not Spanish. Call it whatever, but it is not the language of Spain.


The voiced alveolar affricate /d͡z/ merged with its voiceless counterpart /t͡s/, which then developed into the interdental /θ/, now written z, or c before e, i. But in Andalusia, the Canary Islands and the Americas this sound merged with /s/ as well. See Ceceo, for further information.