Haplogroup E-V13 is paleolithic european (Eupedia claims)

[Thrax]

The main points from the updated article about Haplogroup E1b1b (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml)

This alternate hypothesis is that E-V13 migrated directly from North Africa to southern Europe, crossing the Mediterranean from Tunisia to Sicily, then to Italy and to the southern Balkans. This scenario would explain why E-V13 reaches its peak frequency just on the opposite side of the Strait of Otranto from Italy, i.e. in Albania (+ Kosovo) and Thessaly.

During the Ice Age, Malta, Sicily and mainland Italy formed a single land mass and the coast of North Africa was approximately half the distance it was today, making Sicily visible from Tunisia. Considering that Homo sapiens managed to get all the way to Australia by boat between 70,000 and 40,000 years ago, crossing the Strait of Sicily, perhaps via the small island of Pantelleria halfway, would have posed no major problem. In fact, it is almost certain that humans crossed that strait numerous times during the Stone Age.

Other subclades of E-M78 also present in North Africa and Europe today, like V12, V22 and V65, could also have crossed alongside V13. It is perhaps only due to a founder effect that V13 became considerably more common than other subclades in Europe, especially in the Balkans and eastern Europe. The greatest diversity of E-M78 subclades in Europe is actually found in Iberia, Italy and France, and not in the Balkans (where nearly all E1b1b are V13).

E-V13 is more common in Lybia today than anywhere in the Near East, which concords with central North Africa as being a potential source for the European E-V13 (and other subclades of M78). In fact, the small presence of E-V13 in the Near East could be better explained by the extremely long Greek presence in the eastern Mediterranean from the time of Alexander the Great until the end of the Byzantine domination over the region during the Middle Ages.

A strong argument in favour of E1b1b crossing directly from North Africa to southern Italy is that South Italians have more African admixture than people in the Balkans, Greece or Anatolia. This is true of the Northwest African admixture and the East African (Red sea) admixture. Another argument is that E1b1b has never been found among the dozens of Neolithic Y-DNA samples in the Balkans or Central Europe.

The Neoltihic farmers who migrated from the Levant to the Balkans would have brought mostly Southwest Asian admixture and apparently exclusively Y-haplogroup G2a. Many Neolithic sites yielded an occasional "outsider" to the G2a majority, but these were lineages (C1a2, F, I1, I2) that are thought to belong to assimilated (or enslaved) Mesolithic hunter-gatherers. That was very probably the case with E-V13 in Catalonia too.

In the Balkans, I2a1b lineages only came between the Bronze Age (Thracians, Illyrians) and the Middle Ages (Slavs). If haplogroups C, F and I were the only Paleolithic European lineages, why would indigenous Paleolithic lineages be wiped out from the Balkans and most of Italy with the arrival of Near Eastern farmers, but survive and remain the dominant lineage in Sardinia, which was an important Neolithic centre belonging to the same Cardium Pottery culture as the rest of Italy ? The best explanation is that E1b1b was already the dominant Paleolithic lineage in the Balkans and Italy, apart from Sardinia, and therefore Paleolithic lineages weren't wiped out, but assimilated by Neolithic farmers, which assured their survival.

Nowadays E1b1b is the only Mediterranean haplogroup consistently found throughout Europe, even in Norway, Sweden, Finland and Baltic countries, which are conspicuous by the absence of other Neolithic haplogroups like G2a (bar the Indo-European G2a3b1), J1 and T (except in Estonia). However, since G2a is the only lineage that was consistently found in all Neolithic sites tested to date in Europe, the absence of Neolithic G2a lineages from Scandinavia and the Baltic implies that no Neolithic lineage survives there, and consequently E1b1b (mostly E-V13) does not date from the Neolithic in the region. It could easily have been brought by the Indo-European invasions during the Bronze Age, as a minority lineage picked up in Southeast Europe by the R1b tribes before they made their way to Central Europe and eventually Scandinavia. At present the most consistent explanation is that E-M78 was indigenous to southern Europe in the Mesolithic, and was assimilated by G2a farmers, then by R1b Indo-Europeans. There is in fact a very low diversity among E-V13 in central and north-east Europe, which is consistent with a relatively recent (Bronze to Iron Age) dispersal from a common source.

[Thrax]

I think I am in favor of the theory, since Maciamo explains it with good arguments.

[kabeiros]

At present the most consistent explanation is that E-M78 was indigenous to southern Europe in the Mesolithic That's probably true. The rest are just mumbo-jumbo theories of the clown Maciamo

[Sikeliot]

I would be inclined to agree with this for a number of reasons:

1) E1b1b is not common in the same places as J2 outside of Europe, and thus it is unlikely they arrived together into Europe
2) E1b1b is more common on the Greek mainland and Albania than it is in Sicily and Greek islands, but the latter have higher Near Eastern autosomal admixture, so it's unlikely that this haplogroup carried any real West Asian tendencies with it

[Jackson]

Would be an interesting turn of events, we'll have to wait for more aDNA. :P

[Ballist]

That actually makes a lot of sense. The Illyrians were Paleobalkanic.

[Equilibrium]

E-V13 in the Balkans dates probably at least to the Mesolithic and is related to the Natufians from the Levant. Jean Manco wrote this on Anthrogenica:


The Greek Mesolithic is different from that in the rest of Europe. For a start there are very few Mesolithic sites. They are generally coastal. But the really striking thing is that they seem related to the Levantine Natufian. So these were likely to be coastal foragers wandering from the Levant via the coast of Anatolia to Greece as the climate warmed.

The Natufians are very likely the "Basal Eurasian" population detected by Lazaridis et al 2014.

[Artek]

As Maciamo really likes to write his own story, he states such things like



This alternate hypothesis is that E-V13 migrated directly from North Africa to southern Europe, crossing the Mediterranean from Tunisia to Sicily, then to Italy and to the southern Balkans. This scenario would explain why E-V13 reaches its peak frequency just on the opposite side of the Strait of Otranto from Italy, i.e. in Albania (+ Kosovo) and Thessaly.
Basing on modern distribution(especially frequencies)? Nonsense, it was proven wrong many times.


During the Ice Age, Malta, Sicily and mainland Italy formed a single land mass and the coast of North Africa was approximately half the distance it was today, making Sicily visible from Tunisia. Considering that Homo sapiens managed to get all the way to Australia by boat between 70,000 and 40,000 years ago, crossing the Strait of Sicily, perhaps via the small island of Pantelleria halfway, would have posed no major problem. In fact, it is almost certain that humans crossed that strait numerous times during the Stone Age.
Agreed with that. It can't be denied that this area was easier to cross in the past.



Other subclades of E-M78 also present in North Africa and Europe today, like V12, V22 and V65, could also have crossed alongside V13. It is perhaps only due to a founder effect that V13 became considerably more common than other subclades in Europe, especially in the Balkans and eastern Europe. The greatest diversity of E-M78 subclades in Europe is actually found in Iberia, Italy and France, and not in the Balkans (where nearly all E1b1b are V13).
"Diversity" argument, proven invalid many times. And the diversity in those areas was inflated by various movements that took place during antiquity.



E-V13 is more common in Lybia today than anywhere in the Near East, which concords with central North Africa as being a potential source for the European E-V13 (and other subclades of M78). In fact, the small presence of E-V13 in the Near East could be better explained by the extremely long Greek presence in the eastern Mediterranean from the time of Alexander the Great until the end of the Byzantine domination over the region during the Middle Ages.
Partially agreed, though it would be good to see if those lines diverged earlier or later from bulk of European E-V13. And E-V13 from Levant should be studied more closely.


Another argument is that E1b1b has never been found among the dozens of Neolithic Y-DNA samples in the Balkans or Central Europe.
That's right, though it's neither argument for nor against paleolithic (Southern) European character. It very well may prove that it could've been more recent in the Balkans, than we thought it is.


The Neoltihic farmers who migrated from the Levant to the Balkans would have brought mostly Southwest Asian admixture and apparently exclusively Y-haplogroup G2a. Many Neolithic sites yielded an occasional "outsider" to the G2a majority, but these were lineages (C1a2, F, I1, I2) that are thought to belong to assimilated (or enslaved) Mesolithic hunter-gatherers. That was very probably the case with E-V13 in Catalonia too.
Agreed, although other two lineages add up to this : T1 and H2.(which aren't from assimilated european mesolithic hunters)

In the Balkans, I2a1b lineages only came between the Bronze Age (Thracians, Illyrians) and the Middle Ages (Slavs).
But there were other I2 lineages? So that's not an argument.


If haplogroups C, F and I were the only Paleolithic European lineages, why would indigenous Paleolithic lineages be wiped out from the Balkans and most of Italy with the arrival of Near Eastern farmers, but survive and remain the dominant lineage in Sardinia, which was an important Neolithic centre belonging to the same Cardium Pottery culture as the rest of Italy ?
He haven't studied thesis of Francalacci. Sardinian I2 exploded quite recently, it wasn't a significant lineage for a long time.


The best explanation is that E1b1b was already the dominant Paleolithic lineage in the Balkans and Italy, apart from Sardinia, and therefore Paleolithic lineages weren't wiped out, but assimilated by Neolithic farmers, which assured their survival.
First time he writes that there was no E-V13 among the Balkan neolithic farmer remains, second time he writes that they assimilated hunters-gatherers what helped preserving their lineages. Then he writes that E-V13 was a dominant Paleolithic Balkan lineage (though no assimilated E-V13 was found there or in other areas except Catalonia). Really?


Nowadays E1b1b is the only Mediterranean haplogroup consistently found throughout Europe, even in Norway, Sweden, Finland and Baltic countries, which are conspicuous by the absence of other Neolithic haplogroups like G2a (bar the Indo-European G2a3b1), J1 and T (except in Estonia).
He consistently repeats that J1 is Neolithic. It is but rather not in Europe. Those haplogroups that are considered absent by him, are present in aforementioned countries.


It could easily have been brought by the Indo-European invasions during the Bronze Age, as a minority lineage picked up in Southeast Europe by the R1b tribes before they made their way to Central Europe and eventually Scandinavia. At present the most consistent explanation is that E-M78 was indigenous to southern Europe in the Mesolithic, and was assimilated by G2a farmers, then by R1b Indo-Europeans. There is in fact a very low diversity among E-V13 in central and north-east Europe, which is consistent with a relatively recent (Bronze to Iron Age) dispersal from a common source.
I agree, though I'm not sure where it was really picked up.

More aDNA, less theories,

[Linebacker]

No its not really.

E-v13 also known as E1b is the Neolithic farmer haplogroup,it is also the main haplogroup of root Jewish people,Sub Saharan Africans,Somalis etc.

[Artek]

No its not really.

E-v13 also known as E1b is the Neolithic farmer haplogroup,it is also the main haplogroup of root Jewish people,Sub Saharan Africans,Somalis etc.

V13 isn't the root of Jewish people, SSA or Somalis. They have (mostly) other E1b lineages, phylogenetically quite distant.

[Black Wolf]

We need more ancient DNA from both Europe especially Southern Europe and the Near East to know if E-V13 arrived during the Neolithic or earlier. So far there has only been one sample of E-V13 found in ancient remains and it comes from Neolithic Spain.

[Highlands]

I think it's far too early to make hypotheses of mesolithic origin but it sounds plausable. It may explain higher diversity in Peloponnese and then E-V13 may have spread north from there - but why is he pointing out the higher African component of Sicilians, isn't that recent?

[The Sun King]

I highly doubt it. More likely neolithic or later.

[Gaston]

For now it's neolithic Iberia and nothing else (not Neolithic Balkan, not Paleolithic of any sort). aDNA will reveal soon enough when E-V13 was introduced and when it became a major European lineage.


:p
http://i.hizliresim.com/EbJjBD.png (http://hizliresim.com/EbJjBD)

Says the one who descend in one way or another from a bunch of E1b men (among others) since Turkey has quite a diverse set of E haplogroups. :thumb001:

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Eupedia owner just makes up whatever the fuck it wants, with the apparent aim of being a European Union multicult propaganda mouthpiece. It's not really possible to say where and when ev-13 comes from yet but I am guessing it is levant or even egypt, and no one in their right mind thinks it's not neolithic.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Also it really irks me this clown presents his wild theories as if they are known facts.

[Musso]

EV13 is rare in Northern Europe, EV13 is centered in Southeastern Europe, especially among non-Slavic balkan peoples. EV13 migration from Africa was one of the latest though.

[Skerdilaid]

Also it really irks me this clown presents his wild theories as if they are known facts.

He is a loony for sure. One only has to go back few years and check out some if his posts to see how retarded he really is.

[Vukodav]

Interesting theory, but yet to be checked.I highly doubt it is Paleolithic though.

[Longbowman]

No its not really.

E-v13 also known as E1b is the Neolithic farmer haplogroup,it is also the main haplogroup of root Jewish people,Sub Saharan Africans,Somalis etc.

Not really, that would be J1, if any - E3b comes 3rd if you divide R into R1a and R1b according to Behar, who published the largest YDNA study on AJs. Samaritans are mainly J1 too. Plus a significant amount of Jewish E3b is my clade - Cana'anite (Phonoecian, Judaean) E1b1b1c1a - Levantine, not European.

SSA people actually have E1b1a, not E1b1b1a. Quite different. However, East Africans do have Levantine YDNA, amongst which E3b is the most prominent, but it's different from the European type (but overlaps with mine).

Still, I agree with your overall refutation.


V13 isn't the root of Jewish people, SSA or Somalis. They have (mostly) other E1b lineages, phylogenetically quite distant.

European Jews do carry E3b at high-ish rates (~12% for AJs) as do Samaritans. But the 'root' would be J1, if anything.

Ashkenazis are coincidentally quite similar to Albanians, genetically speaking. It might be that E3b proper in AJs is from Europe anyway, but E1b1b1c1a certainly isn't. Superior ancient Levantine DNA. Either way modern day Eurojews are a huge mix in pretty much every genetic measure. When taken together J totals 38% but it's divided equally between J1 and J2.

[Artek]

European Jews do carry E3b at high-ish rates (~12% for AJs) as do Samaritans. But the 'root' would be J1, if anything.
I agree, I haven't suggested that other E's are the root. The root, like for other Semitic people as well, is most likely J1 indeed.


Ashkenazis are coincidentally quite similar to Albanians, genetically speaking. It might be that E3b proper in AJs is from Europe anyway
Ashkenazis show some Euro-shift, I would guess that they don't perfectly represent Jewish population before expulsion. Maybe some Christians from Levant would've been a better example? Without a bunch of ancient genomes we can't certainly know.

[Longbowman]

I agree, I haven't suggested that other E's are the root. The root, like for other Semitic people as well, is most likely J1 indeed.

Ashkenazis show some Euro-shift, I would guess that they don't perfectly represent Jewish population before expulsion. Maybe some Christians from Levant would've been a better example? Without a bunch of ancient genomes we can't certainly know.

I was just saying that AJ E3b is often the same variety as European E3b.

Of course AJs are more European than anything else. I would use Samaritans, Lebanese Christians aren't a bad reference population either though.

The Levant has a few clades that are native to it, including mine. I'm not sure J1 is necessarily the root Semitic lineage, if there is only one.

[Black Wolf]

Not really, that would be J1, if any - E3b comes 3rd if you divide R into R1a and R1b according to Behar, who published the largest YDNA study on AJs. Samaritans are mainly J1 too. Plus a significant amount of Jewish E3b is my clade - Cana'anite (Phonoecian, Judaean) E1b1b1c1a - Levantine, not European.

SSA people actually have E1b1a, not E1b1b1a. Quite different. However, East Africans do have Levantine YDNA, amongst which E3b is the most prominent, but it's different from the European type (but overlaps with mine).

Still, I agree with your overall refutation.



European Jews do carry E3b at high-ish rates (~12% for AJs) as do Samaritans. But the 'root' would be J1, if anything.

Ashkenazis are coincidentally quite similar to Albanians, genetically speaking. It might be that E3b proper in AJs is from Europe anyway, but E1b1b1c1a certainly isn't. Superior ancient Levantine DNA. Either way modern day Eurojews are a huge mix in pretty much every genetic measure. When taken together J totals 38% but it's divided equally between J1 and J2.

Yes and Southern Italians including Sicilians are also quite similar to Ashkenazi Jews in terms of overall genetic background.

[Longbowman]

what about greeks?

Strong overlap on some PCAs.

[Sikeliot]

Some Greeks will plot similarly to Ashkenazis and others not. It depends on location.

[Gaston]

The overlap is superficial anyway. When you have global plots, AJs don't overlap with European populations. Also remember that the PCA plots (sometimes MDS) you see most often only display the first two dimensions (1 & 2). In most other dimensions, AJs are often in an isolated cluster (what you can see with Dr McDonald).


It makes sense because modern mixes don't equate ancient ones.

[Longbowman]

The overlap is superficial anyway. When you have global plots, AJs don't overlap with European populations. Also remember that the PCA plots (sometimes MDS) you see most often only display the first two dimensions (1 & 2). In most other dimensions, AJs are often in an isolated cluster (what you can see with Dr McDonald).


It makes sense because modern mixes don't equate ancient ones.

McDonald is just a guy, ultimately. Recent papers suggest AJs are only about a quarter levantine and there's not much evidence to suggest they're more Levantine than European. Global PCAs still show overlap with Europe unless said PCAs don't include Sicilians, etc.

[Gaston]

1/4 Levantine? Depends on what population you take as a reference for the Levant. AJs are in any case not very different from Sefardi and North African Jews and I'm certain these are far from being mainly of European descent.

Now we also know there is WHG (mesolithic Euros) ancestry in the Levant, it's actually the other way around: AJs might actually be mostly of Levantine descent.

[Longbowman]

1/4 Levantine? Depends on what population you take as a reference for the Levant. AJs are in any case not very different from Sefardi and North African Jews and I'm certain these are far from being mainly of European descent.

Now we also know there is WHG (mesolithic Euros) ancestry in the Levant, it's actually the other way around: AJs might actually be mostly of Levantine descent.

Bedouin (imperfect reference population, especially considering ~10% SSA admixture) and I doubt Sephardis are that much more Levantine. Both Sephardic and 'Moroccan' (NW African) Jews are from the same racial stock as Ashkenazis, the majority of 'Moroccan' Jews being Sephardics (from Spain, originally, until 1492 and beyond) with a more-or-less assimilated minority of native Berber Jews. Same for Algeria, Tunisia and parts of Libya.

It really isn't. I don't think you've done your research on the topic at all. Especially considering that low-level Mesolithic exists in the Bedouin reference populations anyway. Mesolithic in Ashkenazis is simply far, far too high for what you suggest. There are no runs I can think of, no atDNA papers extant of which I know, that support your hypothesis. Not even a detailed look at history. Only popular perception.

[Northumbrian]

I think I am in favor of the theory, since Maciamo explains it with good arguments.

Well one would naturally be more in favour of the theory that fits their prefered ideal, that is E-V13 being European and pre-Indo-European and Neolithic at that. But like some Brits that cling to the theory that R1b is Paleolithic and spread here purely from Western Europe during the end of the last Ice Age, it may be more a case of wishful thinking.
I want to see further evidence first such as where the oldest subclades are. With R1b they were found in Anatolia I believe.

[Longbowman]

Well one would naturally be more in favour of the theory that fits their prefered ideal, that is E-V13 being European and pre-Indo-European and Neolithic at that. But like some Brits that cling to the theory that R1b is Paleolithic and spread here purely from Western Europe during the end of the last Ice Age, it may be more a case of wishful thinking.
I want to see further evidence first such as where the oldest subclades are. With R1b they were found in Anatolia I believe.

Lazaridis et all support Southwest Russia.

[Gaston]

Bedouin (imperfect reference population, especially considering ~10% SSA admixture) and I doubt Sephardis are that much more Levantine. Both Sephardic and 'Moroccan' (NW African) Jews are from the same racial stock as Ashkenazis, the majority of 'Moroccan' Jews being Sephardics (from Spain, originally, until 1492 and beyond) with a more-or-less assimilated minority of native Berber Jews. Same for Algeria, Tunisia and parts of Libya.

It really isn't. I don't think you've done your research on the topic at all. Especially considering that low-level Mesolithic exists in the Bedouin reference populations anyway. Mesolithic in Ashkenazis is simply far, far too high for what you suggest. There are no runs I can think of, no atDNA papers extant of which I know, that support your hypothesis. Not even a detailed look at history. Only popular perception.

I love how you always say I don't know shit or that I didn't do "research", it's so constructive. I can make the same blunt statement about you, but I won't.


As far as I know, there is no paper out there that settled once and for all what I call "Western Jews" ' genesis. But based on all the fairly advanced and creative and yet non-academic projects, Ashkenazi Jews are more African-like than most periphery [Southern] European, a tell-tale sign of their mainly non-European nature.

But for now, there is still no definite answer about the exact nature of the Levantine ancestry considering the heterogenous landscape that is the modern Levant. The European contributors are also still unknown, which doesn't help either. The only way Western Jews can be mostly of European descent is by having a mainly Italian-like or Greek-like contribution (in line with history?). But it doesn't cancel the aforementioned [pseudo]africanity.

[Northumbrian]

Lazaridis et all support Southwest Russia.

Ah, it's been a while since I looked at this. That's more of a location I prefer. :D But are the oldest subclades found there and how does one account for significantly less R1b being there than everywhere else? Whereabouts in Russia? Besides the Caucasus?

[Longbowman]

As far as I know, there is no paper out there that settled once and for all what I call "Western Jews" ' genesis. But based on all the fairly advanced and creative and yet non-academic projects, Ashkenazi Jews are more African-like than most periphery [Southern] European, a tell-tale sign of their mainly non-European nature.

That's simply not true and it wouldn't follow anyway. Eurpgenes et al support me. Several good papers support me.

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf


But for now, there is still no definite answer about the exact nature of the Levantine ancestry considering the heterogenous landscape that is the modern Levant. The European contributors are also still unknown, which doesn't help either. The only way Western Jews can be mostly of European descent is by having a mainly Italian-like or Greek-like contribution (in line with history?). But it doesn't cancel the aforementioned [pseudo]africanity.

They are almost certainly mainly Italian as they come from a group of Jews from Lecce who were invited by Charlemagne to settle the Rhine, so this is all in keeping.

You're simply making up the 'pseudo-Africanity.'

[Not a Cop]

Ah, it's been a while since I looked at this. That's more of a location I prefer. :D But are the oldest subclades found there and how does one account for significantly less R1b being there than everywhere else? Whereabouts in Russia? Besides the Caucasus?

Take a look. (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?159505-Reich-Yamnaya-brought-R1b-to-Europe&highlight=samara)