classify indian freedom fighter Bhagat Singh

[jatt]

http://drop.ndtv.com/albums/ENTERTAINMENT/bhagat_singh_bollywood/bhagat-singh2.jpg

Bhagat Singh age 21+ years

http://f0.pepst.com/c/BF1E2B/441822/ssc3/home/081/jungsingh82.yahoo.com1000/albums/bhagat_singh_real.jpg_480_480_0_64000_0_1_0.jpg

Bhagat Singh age 20 years

https://uddari.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/bsatnationalcollege.jpg

Bhagat Singh age 17 years

[Alan Weiss]

He looks like a white actor in a 1940s movie playing an indian.

[jatt]

He looks like a white actor in a 1940s movie playing an indian.

how would u classify him.. He was a great man gave up his life at the age of 23 fighting against british.

[Mortimer]

gracil indid and indo-afghan

[jatt]

gracil indid and indo-afghan

thanks for the try...he doest show indo afghan characteristics in his pheno in my opinion.. more kind of indo brachid and nord indid intermediate.... unfortunately in india sissies like ghandhi ji are given too much importance than the men whom did armed resistance.

[Mortimer]

thanks for the try...he doest show indo afghan characteristics in his pheno in my opinion.. more kind of indo brachid and nord indid intermediate.... unfortunately in india sissies like ghandhi ji are given too much importance than the men whom did armed resistance.

ok but indo-afghan is different then irano-afghan just for the record, indo-afghan is a classificiation from deniker before other anthropologists invented the irano-afghan, indo-afghan is highest in brahmins, sikhs and rajputs and gypsies were also classified as indo-afghan

https://books.google.at/books?id=wLqtVHTmBiQC&pg=PA408&lpg=PA408&dq=deniker+indo-afghan&source=bl&ots=j510_t9ySw&sig=_jYKu7Zkd2lneG9kWKcqnc7pmfE&hl=de&sa=X&ei=dSEfVdWrH9X5aqStgHA&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=deniker%20indo-afghan&f=false

its a truly indian phenotype not iranian. later it was called irano-afghan and meant more iranian phenotypes

[jatt]

ok but indo-afghan is different then irano-afghan just for the record, indo-afghan is a classificiation from deniker before other anthropologists invented the irano-afghan, indo-afghan is highest in brahmins, sikhs and rajputs and gypsies were also classified as indo-afghan

https://books.google.at/books?id=wLqtVHTmBiQC&pg=PA408&lpg=PA408&dq=deniker+indo-afghan&source=bl&ots=j510_t9ySw&sig=_jYKu7Zkd2lneG9kWKcqnc7pmfE&hl=de&sa=X&ei=dSEfVdWrH9X5aqStgHA&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=deniker%20indo-afghan&f=false

its a truly indian phenotype not iranian. later it was called irano-afghan and meant more iranian phenotypes

bro indo afghans would be these Kashmiri gujjars.. note their mountaneous look
http://www.thedigitaltrekker.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/2012.12.11-16.02.14-2.jpg

[Shah-Jehan]

Iranicised Indo-Brachid.

He was from West Punjab.

[gum_dum]

Iranicised Indo-Brachid.

He was from West Punjab.

True, he was Pakistani sandhu jatt. :)

[Raphacam]

Agree with Shah Jehan, indo-brachid with iranid.

[jatt]

Iranicised Indo-Brachid.

He was from West Punjab.

nope he wast .... man you Pakistanis and Bangladeshis have this fetish making indian great Bollywood stars and whomever they feel like as somehow Pakistani... if we go that way than founder of Pakistan MUHAMMED ALI JINNAH is indian... dude in Pakistan they have do not rever indian freedom fighter and have no mention of the sacrifices made by them in their textbooks .... they are taught they got freedom from india.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_BNWg9z9-5SE/TXBlTDRBwdI/AAAAAAAAPDU/dWRRfkEKN1A/s640/shaheed-bhagat-singh-house.jpg

Bhagat Singhs home at village khatkar kalan close to banga town in indian Punjab.

n by the way Lahore shouldn't been gone to Pakistan.. it was city of Sikhs.

[gum_dum]

Jatt why are you posting some random house build in modern times? Here is actual house of Baghat Singh in Jaranwala, Pakistan, now turned in to museum.

http://i3.dainikbhaskar.com/thumbnail/300x259/web2images/www.dailybhaskar.com/2014/02/17/7716_bhagat_singh.jpg

http://images.indianexpress.com/2014/02/bhagat-singh-480.jpg

It does not surprise me where he was born, because muslim jatt clans rose against British in 1857 from same area while in other places jats muslims and sikhs helped British. They are collectively known as great ravi jats. Amristar and Gurdaspur should have been part of Pakistan because they are majha speaking population and were muslim majority just like Lahore, while 90% of Indian punjabis are doabis and malwis. 54% of current day Indain punjabi jats are converted hindus from Malwa and Doabi region of Indian punjab. They converted to sikhsm between 1848-1947 under british empire if you read British census reports.

Thats why Baghat Singh give Paki vibes, his eyes are dead give away.

[jatt]

Can u tell me Names of some famous Muslim Jatt freedom fighters. Don't spread misinformaTIon sikhs were living in pakistani part of India before parTition of India DOest make them pakistani. We don't say Muhammad Ali Jinnah is indian so shouldn't u claim our people man

[gum_dum]

Can u tell me Names of some famous Muslim Jatt freedom fighters. Don't spread misinformaTIon sikhs were living in pakistani part of India before parTition of India DOest make them pakistani. We don't say Muhammad Ali Jinnah is indian so shouldn't u claim our people man


Jinnah was born in Karachi :rolleyes: Read about ravi jat tribes rising against British, they were all muslims. :thumb001: Khalistanis/majha jat sikhs are just like Pak jats. But doabis, malwis are little different.

"The Rechna Doab was long home to the pastoral Jats, who had constantly maintained a sturdy independence against the successive rulers of northern India. The sites of Kot Kamalia and Harappa contain large mounds of antique bricks and other ruins left by the Indus Valley Civilization, while many other remains of ancient cities or villages lie scattered along the river bank, or dotted the then-barren stretches of the central waste. The pastoral tribes of this barren expanse did not appear to have paid more than a nominal allegiance to the Muslim rulers, and even in the 19th century, when Ranjit Singh extended the Sikh supremacy as far as Multan, the population for the most part remained in a chronic state of rebellion. British influence was first exercised in the district in 1847, when an officer was deputed to effect a summary settlement of the land revenue. Direct British rule was effected on the annexation of the Punjab in 1849.

During the Indian Rebellion of 1857, there was a general rising of the Jat clans, the District formed the scene of the only rising which took place north of the Sutlej. Before the end of May, emissaries from Delhi crossed the river from Sirsa and Hissar, where open rebellion was already rife, and met with a ready reception from the Kharrals and other wild Jat clans."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montgomery_District

[Shah-Jehan]

Lahore was city of sikhs? None of Punjab was sikh majority at all, west Punjab in Pakistan had a muslim majority,East Punjab in India had all Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs (a plurality) while Haryana/Himanchal pradesh was Hindu majority.

Muslims were majority in both Lahore and Amritsar, Hindus in Simla.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/India_religion_map_1909_en.jpg

[gum_dum]

Lahore was city of sikhs? None of Punjab was sikh majority at all, west Punjab in Pakistan had a muslim majority,East Punjab in India had all Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs (a plurality) while Haryana/Himanchal pradesh was Hindu majority.

Muslims were majority in both Lahore and Amritsar, Hindus in Simla.

Here is religious map of British punjab.

http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/.a/6a00d8341c464853ef01a511f872ad970c-pi

Even few districts in Indian punjab were muslim majority, those are majha districts bordering Pakistan.

[Shah-Jehan]

Here is religious map of British punjab.

http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/.a/6a00d8341c464853ef01a511f872ad970c-pi

Even few districts in Indian punjab were muslim majority, those are majha districts bordering Pakistan.

Yeah, a lot of Muslim East Punjabis migrated into West Punjab.

In Bengal, we were also left without Muslim majority areas like Murshidabad, Maldah and Barak valley though we were given Khulna which had a hindu plurality as a concession.

I would've wished that partition never happened to the Bengal region TBH, if India was partitioned it should've been three states, India, Pakistan and a separate Bengali state.

[jatt]

Jinnah was born in Karachi :rolleyes: Read about ravi jat tribes rising against British, they were all muslims. :thumb001: Khalistanis/majha jat sikhs are just like Pak jats. But doabis, malwis are little different.

"The Rechna Doab was long home to the pastoral Jats, who had constantly maintained a sturdy independence against the successive rulers of northern India. The sites of Kot Kamalia and Harappa contain large mounds of antique bricks and other ruins left by the Indus Valley Civilization, while many other remains of ancient cities or villages lie scattered along the river bank, or dotted the then-barren stretches of the central waste. The pastoral tribes of this barren expanse did not appear to have paid more than a nominal allegiance to the Muslim rulers, and even in the 19th century, when Ranjit Singh extended the Sikh supremacy as far as Multan, the population for the most part remained in a chronic state of rebellion. British influence was first exercised in the district in 1847, when an officer was deputed to effect a summary settlement of the land revenue. Direct British rule was effected on the annexation of the Punjab in 1849.

During the Indian Rebellion of 1857, there was a general rising of the Jat clans, the District formed the scene of the only rising which took place north of the Sutlej. Before the end of May, emissaries from Delhi crossed the river from Sirsa and Hissar, where open rebellion was already rife, and met with a ready reception from the Kharrals and other wild Jat clans."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montgomery_District

man I am from Amritsar .. and we don't look like you people don't you think.. Sikhs have a distinct look are you denying that no matter from doaba or majha or malwa region.. do you think bhagat singh look like Pakistani Punjabi because if you do then show me 1 person with similar pheno as him...

[gum_dum]

Yeah, a lot of Muslim East Punjabis migrated into West Punjab.

In Bengal, we were also left without Muslim majority areas like Murshidabad, Maldah and Barak valley though we were given Khulna which had a hindu plurality as a concession.

I would've wished that partition never happened to the Bengal region TBH, if India was partitioned it should've been three states, India, Pakistan and a separate Bengali state.

Yes partition was bit unfair for Pakistan as well. This is proper map of Pakistan. Bangistan was supposed to be different country initially.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/64/MAPOFRAHMATPLAN.jpg

[Shah-Jehan]

Yes partition was bit unfair for Pakistan as well. This is proper map of Pakistan. Bangistan was supposed to be different country initially.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/64/MAPOFRAHMATPLAN.jpg

LOL, that is even crazier.

[jatt]

Lahore was city of sikhs? None of Punjab was sikh majority at all, west Punjab in Pakistan had a muslim majority,East Punjab in India had all Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs (a plurality) while Haryana/Himanchal pradesh was Hindu majority.

Muslims were majority in both Lahore and Amritsar, Hindus in Simla.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/India_religion_map_1909_en.jpg

buddie we were minority as whole but it was us who were ruling those areas.

[jatt]

http://www.gurmat.info/sms/smspublications/thesikhsandtheirwayoflife/chapter4/ExtentOfSikhEmpire.jpg

Sikh empires extent

[Shah-Jehan]

http://www.gurmat.info/sms/smspublications/thesikhsandtheirwayoflife/chapter4/ExtentOfSikhEmpire.jpg

Sikh empires extent

That was long ago, in that case the Kingdom of Bengal ruled by the Nawabs would include all of Bengal, Bihar and Orissa.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/85/1776_Rennell_-_Dury_Wall_Map_of_Bihar_and_Bengal,_India_-_Geographicus_-_BaharBengal-dury-1776.jpg/1280px-1776_Rennell_-_Dury_Wall_Map_of_Bihar_and_Bengal,_India_-_Geographicus_-_BaharBengal-dury-1776.jpg

[jatt]

Jatt why are you posting some random house build in modern times? Here is actual house of Baghat Singh in Jaranwala, Pakistan, now turned in to museum.http://www.theapricity.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3509089

http://i3.dainikbhaskar.com/thumbnail/300x259/web2images/www.dailybhaskar.com/2014/02/17/7716_bhagat_singh.jpg

http://images.indianexpress.com/2014/02/bhagat-singh-480.jpg

It does not surprise me where he was born, because muslim jatt clans rose against British in 1857 from same area while in other places jats muslims and sikhs helped British. They are collectively known as great ravi jats. Amristar and Gurdaspur should have been part of Pakistan because they are majha speaking population and were muslim majority just like Lahore, while 90% of Indian punjabis are doabis and malwis. 54% of current day Indain punjabi jats are converted hindus from Malwa and Doabi region of Indian punjab. They converted to sikhsm between 1848-1947 under british empire if you read British census reports.

Thats why Baghat Singh give Paki vibes, his eyes are dead give away.

buddy bhagat singh doest give paki vibes... have you never seen Pakistani Sikhs and how they look.. lol they are called bhapas here for their looks and mocked for looking like the way they look.. First of all bhagat singh is a Sikh and have nothing to do with muslims..muhammed ali jinnahs family were recent converts from hindus to muslim..

[gum_dum]

man I am from Amritsar .. and we don't look like you people don't you think.. Sikhs have a distinct look are you denying that no matter from doaba or majha or malwa region.. do you think bhagat singh look like Pakistani Punjabi because if you do then show me 1 person with similar pheno as him...

Now you have mixed with doabis and malwis jats, there has been little drift. Muslims, sikhs and hindu jats look different from each other because of same reason. Trained eyes can see difference because differences are subtle, especially between sikh jats and muslims jats, I am not counting other non-jat sikhs since they have nothing to do with muslim jats. Baghat will be atypical in Indian punjab, he will be guessed as pak punjabi jat. Don't get me wrong, I think jat sikhs are handsome/robust looking people on average. Thats why people from same clan in both sides can give different vibes. 90% of muslim jat were from west punjab, mostly found in current day Azad Kashmir and Pak central punjab. While 54% sikh jats are late converts from malwa and doabi hindu jats between 1848-1947.

[gum_dum]

buddy bhagat singh doest give paki vibes... have you never seen Pakistani Sikhs and how they look.. lol they are called bhapas here for their looks and mocked for looking like the way they look.. First of all bhagat singh is a Sikh and have nothing to do with muslims..muhammed ali jinnahs family were recent converts from hindus to muslim..

These bhapa sikhs in India you make fun of are khatris and have nothing to do with Pak punjabi muslim jats. Don't be ridiculous now ;) Bhghat singh was Sandhu jat from Pakistan. Anyway seem like your hatred for khatris is still strong, I though you was over that thing. You sikh and hindu jats give bad name to muslim jats like us.

[jatt]

Now you have mixed with doabis and malwis jats, there has been little drift. Muslims, sikhs and hindu jats look different from each other because of same reason. Trained eyes can see difference because differences are subtle, especially between sikh jats and muslims jats, I am not counting other non-jat sikhs since they have nothing to do with muslim jats. Baghat will be atypical in Indian punjab, he will be guessed as pak punjabi jat. Don't get me wrong, I think jat sikhs are handsome/robust looking people on average. Thats why people from same clan in both sides can give different vibes. 90% of muslim jat were from west punjab, mostly found in current day Azad Kashmir and Pak central punjab. While 54% sikh jats are late converts from malwa and doabi hindu jats between 1848-1947.

http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/Martyrs/Bhagat%20Singh/Sarabha.jpg

kartar singh saraba another Sikh freedom fighter was from Ludhiana malwa belt of Punjab.. doest he look similar to bhagat singh.. muslim jatts I donno why look different. bhagat singh would be very normal in indian Punjab actually and very atypical in Pakistani Punjab.. reason being you are either gracile indid or irano afghan type..

http://www.sikhchic.com/our_heroes/cms/articles/photo1/bhagatSingh-1.jpg

bhagat singh when young .. look similar to kartar singh

[gum_dum]

LOL, that is even crazier.

I know right :laugh: map was drawn by men who came up with idea of Pakistan.

''At this solemn hour in the history of India, when British and Indian delegates are laying the foundations of a Federal Constitution for that Sub-continent, we address this appeal to you, in the name of our common heritage, and on behalf of our thirty million Muslim brethren who live in PAKISTAN by which we mean the five Northern units of India viz: Punjab, North-West Frontier Province (Afghan Province), Kashmir, Sind, and Baluchistan. And we ask for your sympathy and support in our grim and fateful struggle against political crucifixion and national annihilation. Our brave but voiceless nation is being sacrificed on the altar of Hindu Nationalism not only by the non-Muslims, but also, to their lasting shame, by our own so-called leaders with a reckless disregard of our protests and in utter contempt of the warnings of history. The Muslim Delegates at the Round Table Conference have committed an inexcusable blunder and an incredible betrayal. They have agreed, in the name of Hindu Nationalism, to the perpetual subjection of the ill-starred Muslim Millat in India. They have accepted, without any protest or demur and without any reservation or qualification, a constitution based on the principle of an All-India Federation. This acceptance amounts to nothing less than signing the death-warrant of Islam and of Muslims in India. To justify their action they have taken shelter behind the so-called Mandate from the Millat. But they forgot that suicidal Mandate was framed and formulated by their own hands."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choudhry_Rahmat_Ali

He was not treated well initially. And even after partition he had to leave Pakistan because was not happy with what we got.

[Shah-Jehan]

These bhapa sikhs in India you make fun of are khatris and have nothing to do with Pak punjabi muslim jats. Don't be ridiculous now ;) Bhghat singh was Sandhu jat from Pakistan. Anyway seem like your hatred for khatris is still strong, I though you was over that thing. You sikh and hindu jats give bad name to muslim jats like us.

It is interesting how in other parts of South Asia, there is a very definitive and strong caste/tribal association system while Bengal lacks such system. While Hindus do have a caste system, it is very simple in nature and does not matter for the most part when it comes to marriage or association, while Muslims don't even have any caste system and use knowledge of their ancestor's caste as ancestorial components, foreign Muslims who came before the 18th century have also been well assimilated and don't form a distinct Ashraf class, Bengal probably has the largest diaspora of Pashtuns (where they took refugee from Mughal invasions + arrived as soldiers and merchants) who have been assimilated well into Bengali culture and don't claim to be "pathan" as in other areas.

[gum_dum]

http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/Martyrs/Bhagat%20Singh/Sarabha.jpg

kartar singh saraba another Sikh freedom fighter was from Ludhiana malwa belt of Punjab.. doest he look similar to bhagat singh.. muslim jatts I donno why look different. bhagat singh would be very normal in indian Punjab actually and very atypical in Pakistani Punjab.. reason being you are either gracile indid or irano afghan type..

http://www.sikhchic.com/our_heroes/cms/articles/photo1/bhagatSingh-1.jpg

bhagat singh when young .. look similar to kartar singh

This guy look like Indian punjabi while baghat pak jat even in old picture. You are stupid to think bhappa sikh khatris are muslim jats, or any eira ghera is muslim jat. Muslim jats in Pakistan punjab are only 10% of population. Most of them live in rural areas of azad kashmir and central punjab where one can say they make 15% of population in those areas. Outside these areas jats are not really a race with common decent clans but just someone in to agriculture.

[gum_dum]

buddie we were minority as whole but it was us who were ruling those areas.

Bhai sikh rule was over in 1845, it only lasted few decades.

[jatt]

This guy look like Indian punjabi while baghat pak jat even in old picture. You are stupid to think bhappa sikh khatris are muslim jats, or any eira ghera is muslim jat. Muslim jats in Pakistan punjab are only 10% of population. Most of them live in rural areas of azad kashmir and central punjab where one can say they make 15% of population in those areas. Outside these areas jats are not really a race with common decent clans but just someone in to agriculture.

LOL you wont gonna believe even if I post bhagat singhs exact lookalike so no point in going on the subject.. end of the day he was Sikh and lived most of his life in india and gave up his life for the cause of indian freedom. there were Sikhs in Pakistan before partition but most left after partition so you cant claim them as your kin now

[Shah-Jehan]

LOL you wont gonna believe even if I post bhagat singhs exact lookalike so no point in going on the subject.. end of the day he was Sikh and lived most of his life in india and gave up his life for the cause of indian freedom. there were Sikhs in Pakistan before partition but most left after partition so you cant claim them as your kin now

1) Bhagat Singh was an atheist first of all and a staunch secularist
2) He was born In west Punjab and died in west Punjab (now Pakistan)

[gum_dum]

LOL you wont gonna believe even if I post bhagat singhs exact lookalike so no point in going on the subject.. end of the day he was Sikh and lived most of his life in india and gave up his life for the cause of indian freedom. there were Sikhs in Pakistan before partition but most left after partition so you cant claim them as your kin now

He was atheist not sikh.

"Why I am an Atheist is an essay written by Indian revolutionary Bhagat Singh in 1930 in Lahore Central Jail.[1] The essay was a reply to a religious man who thought Bhagat Singh became an atheist because of his vanity.[2]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_I_am_an_Atheist

He was born in Pakistan, died in Pakistan. Belonged to clan which is numerous in west punjab, sandhu. Sandhu are believed to be one of original clans who moved from Sindh.

[jatt]

He was atheist not sikh.

"Why I am an Atheist is an essay written by Indian revolutionary Bhagat Singh in 1930 in Lahore Central Jail.[1] The essay was a reply to a religious man who thought Bhagat Singh became an atheist because of his vanity.[2]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_I_am_an_Atheist

He was born in Pakistan, died in Pakistan. Belonged to clan which is numerous in west punjab, sandhu. Sandhu are believed to be one of original clans who moved from Sindh.

he was born Sikh and died a Sikh.. look at his picture taken in jail... he turned atheist for some time cause he couldn't believe god was real when people were suffering...if it was upto him he wouldn't have let partition happen.. are you partition apologist or what

[gum_dum]

he was born Sikh and died a Sikh.. look at his picture taken in jail... he turned atheist for some time cause he couldn't believe god was real when people were suffering...if it was upto him he wouldn't have let partition happen.. are you partition apologist or what

He died to liberate Pakistan, he would have converted to Islam few years later if allowed to live. But British hanged him.

[gum_dum]

It is interesting how in other parts of South Asia, there is a very definitive and strong caste/tribal association system while Bengal lacks such system. While Hindus do have a caste system, it is very simple in nature and does not matter for the most part when it comes to marriage or association, while Muslims don't even have any caste system and use knowledge of their ancestor's caste as ancestorial components, foreign Muslims who came before the 18th century have also been well assimilated and don't form a distinct Ashraf class, Bengal probably has the largest diaspora of Pashtuns (where they took refugee from Mughal invasions + arrived as soldiers and merchants) who have been assimilated well into Bengali culture and don't claim to be "pathan" as in other areas.

No wonder bhaiyas hindus from UP/Bihar literary worship pathans of these regions. :laugh: Did you know up/bihari converted rajpoots started to identify as pathans? They were known as divani pathans, while proper pashtuns were known as nasli (nasli mean racially) pathans.

[jatt]

He died to liberate Pakistan, he would have converted to Islam few years later if allowed to live. But British hanged him.
:picard2:

[jatt]

Pakistani Bangladeshi seem to have shortage of Heros to gain inspiration from

[gum_dum]

Why you hate khatris? Hari Singh Nalwa was khatri from Gujranwala. West punjab khatris are founder of sikhsm, all 10 sikh gurus were khatris.

[jatt]

Why you hate khatris? Hari Singh Nalwa was khatri from Gujranwala. West punjab khatris are founder of sikhsm, all 10 sikh gurus were khatris.

What made u think I hate them. No I don't. I don't like bhapa As they r too cunning

[Shah-Jehan]

Pakistani Bangladeshi seem to have shortage of Heros to gain inspiration from

dude no other people in South Asia could match the size of the Pala empire of Bengal...nor would anyone match the ethno-linguistic pride of the Bengali people or even the intellectuality (majority of British Indian scientists and intellectuals were Bengali and there is a phrase from british times "What Bengal thinks today, India thinks tomorrow")

Plus, both India and Pakistan are multi-ethnic and multi-linguistic state while Bangladesh is the only homogeneous ethnic based state in all of South Asia.

[gum_dum]

What made u think I hate them. No I don't. I don't like bhapa As they r too cunning

Bhappa are khatris.

[Skipper]

Pred. Gracil-Indid, with some Indo-Brachid Alpine given the roundness of the face/jaw.

[Óttar]

unfortunately in india sissies like ghandhi ji are given too much importance than the men whom did armed resistance.
I'm a Sardar Patel man myself.

[Óttar]

he was born Sikh and died a Sikh.. look at his picture taken in jail... he turned atheist for some time cause he couldn't believe god was real when people were suffering...

Why I Am An Atheist - Bhagat Singh (http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl2421/stories/20071102501502500.htm)

[Shiv Verma, Bhagat Singh’s close associate and founder-member of the Hindustan Socialist Republican Association, provides the following annotation on Baba Randhir Singh’s remark: “Baba Randhir Singh… was a God-fearing religious man. It pained him to learn that Bhagat Singh was a non-believer. He somehow managed to see Bhagat Singh in the condemned cell and tried to convince him about the existence of God, but failed. Baba lost his temper and said tauntingly: ‘You are giddy with fame and have developed an ego which is standing like a black curtain between you and the God’.”]

A NEW question has cropped up.

Is it due to vanity that I do not believe in the existence of an omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient God? I had never imagined that I would ever have to confront such a question. But conversation with some friends has given me a hint that certain of my friends – if I am not claiming too much in thinking them to be so – are inclined to conclude from the brief contact they have had with me, that it was too much on my part to deny the existence of God and that there was a certain amount of vanity that actuated my disbelief….

I deny the very existence of that Almighty Supreme Being. Why I deny it, shall be dealt with later on. Here I want to clear one thing, that it is not vanity that has actuated me to adopt the doctrines of atheism. I am neither a rival nor an incarnation, nor the Supreme Being Himself. One point is decided, that it is not vanity that has led me to this mode of thinking. Let me examine the facts to disprove this allegation. According to these friends of mine I have grown vainglorious perhaps due to the undue popularity gained during the trials – both Delhi Bomb and Lahore Conspiracy Cases. Well, let us see if their premises are correct. My atheism is not of so recent origin. I had stopped believing in God when I was an obscure young man, of whose existence my above-mentioned friends were not even aware. At least a college student cannot cherish any sort of undue pride which may lead him to atheism. Though a favourite with some professors and disliked by certain others, I was never an industrious or a studious boy. I could not get any chance of indulging in such feelings as vanity. I was rather a boy with a very shy nature, who had certain pessimistic dispositions about the future career. And in those days, I was not a perfect atheist. My grandfather under whose influence I was brought up is an orthodox Arya Samajist. An Arya Samajist is anything but an atheist. After finishing my primary education I joined the D.A.V. School of Lahore and stayed in its Boarding House for full one year. There, apart from morning and evening prayers, I used to recite “Gayatri Mantra” for hours and hours. I was a perfect devotee in those days. Later on I began to live with my father. He is a liberal inasmuch as the orthodoxy of religions is concerned. It was through his teachings that I aspired to devote my life to the cause of freedom. But he is not an atheist. He is a firm believer. He used to encourage me for offering prayers daily. So this is how I was brought up. In the Non-Cooperation days I joined the National College. It was there that I began to think liberally and discuss and criticise all the religious problems, even about God. But still I was a devout believer. By that time I had begun to preserve the unshorn and unclipped long hair but I could never believe in the mythology and doctrines of Sikhism or any other religion. But I had a firm faith in God’s existence.

Later on I joined the revolutionary party. The first leader with whom I came in contact, though not convinced, could not dare to deny the existence of God. On my persistent inquiries about God, he used to say: “Pray whenever you want to.” Now this is atheismless courage required for the adoption of that creed. The second leader with whom I came in contact was a firm believer. Let me mention his name – respected Comrade Shachindra Nath Sanyal, now undergoing life transportation in connection with the Kakori Conspiracy Case. From the very first page of his famous and only book, Bandi Jivan (or Incarcerated Life), the Glory of God is sung vehemently.... What I wanted to point out was that the idea of disbelief had not even germinated in the revolutionary party.

Up to that period I was only a romantic idealist revolutionary. Up till then we were to follow. Now came the time to shoulder the whole responsibility. Due to the inevitable reaction for some time the very existence of the party seemed impossible. Enthusiastic comrades – nay, leaders – began to jeer at us. For some time I was afraid that some day I also might not be convinced of the futility of our own programme. That was a turning point in my revolutionary career. “Study” was the cry that reverberated in the corridors of my mind. Study to enable yourself to face the arguments advanced by opposition. Study to arm yourself with arguments in favour of your cult. I began to study. My previous faith and convictions underwent a remarkable modification. The romance of the violent methods alone, which was so prominent amongst our predecessors, was replaced by serious ideas. No more mysticism, no more blind faith. Realism became our cult. Use of force justifiable when resorted to as a matter of terrible necessity: non-violence as policy indispensable for all mass movements. So much about methods. The most important thing was the clear conception of the ideal for which we were to fight. As there were no important activities in the field of action, I got ample opportunity to study various ideals of the world revolution. I studied Bakunin, the anarchist leader, something of Marx, the father of communism, and much of Lenin, Trotsky and others – the men who had successfully carried out a revolution in their country. They were all atheists. Bakunin’s God and State though only fragmentary, is an interesting study of the subject. Later still I came across a book entitled Common Sense by Nirlamba Swami. It was only a sort of mystic atheism. This subject became of utmost interest to me. By the end of 1926 I had been convinced as to the baselessness of the theory of existence of an almighty supreme being who created, guided and controlled the universe. I had given out this disbelief of mine, I began discussion on the subjects with my friends. I had become a pronounced atheist. But what it meant will presently be discussed….

Judgment is already too well known. Within a week it is to be pronounced. What is the consolation with the exception of the idea that I am going to sacrifice my life for a cause? A God-believing Hindu might be expecting to be reborn as a king, a Muslim or a Christian might dream of the luxuries to be enjoyed in paradise and the reward he is to get for his suffering and sacrifices. But, what am I to expect? I know the moment the rope is fitted round my neck and rafters removed from under my feet, that will be the final moment – that will be the last moment. I, or to be more precise, my soul as interpreted in the metaphysical terminology, shall all be finished there. Nothing further. A short life of struggle with no such magnificent end shall in itself be the reward, if I have the courage to take it in that light.... I know in the present circumstances my faith in God would have made my life easier, my burden lighter, and my disbelief in Him has turned all the circumstances too dry, and the situation may assume too harsh a shape. A little bit of mysticism can make it poetical. But I do not want the help of any intoxication to meet my fate. I am a realist. I have been trying to overpower the instinct in me by the help of reason. I have not always been successful in achieving this end. But man’s duty is to try and endeavour, success depends upon chance and environments.

According to me, any man who has got some reasoning power at his command always tries to reason out his environments. Where direct proofs are lacking philosophy occupies the important place. As I have already stated, a certain revolutionary friend used to say that philosophy is the outcome of human weakness. When our ancestors had leisure enough to try to solve out the mystery of this world, its past, present and the future, its whys and wherefores, they having been terribly short of direct proofs, everybody tried to solve the problem in his own way. Hence we find the wide differences in the fundamentals of various religious creeds, which sometimes assume very antagonistic and conflicting shapes. Not only the Oriental and Occidental philosophies differ, there are differences even amongst various schools of thought in each hemisphere. Amongst Oriental religions, the Moslem faith is not at all compatible with Hindu faith. In India alone Buddhism and Jainism are sometimes quite separate from Brahmanism, in which there are again conflicting faiths as Arya Samaj and Sanatan Dharma. Charwak is still another independent thinker of the past ages. He challenged the authority of God in the old times. All these creeds differ from each other on the fundamental question; and everybody considers himself to be on the right. There lies the misfortune. Instead of using the experiments and expressions of the ancient Savants and thinkers as a basis for our future struggle against ignorance and to try to find out a solution to this mysterious problem, we, lethargical as we have proved to be, raise the hue and cry of faith, unflinching and unwavering faith to their versions and thus are guilty of stagnation in human progress....

If, as you believe, there is an almighty, omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent God, who created the earth or world, please let me know why did he create it? This world of woes and miseries, a veritable, eternal combination of numberless tragedies: Not a single soul being perfectly satisfied.

Pray, don’t say that it is His Law. If he is bound by any law, he is not omnipotent. He is another slave like ourselves. Please don’t say that it is his enjoyment. Nero burnt one Rome. He killed a very limited number of people. He created very few tragedies, all to his perfect enjoyment. And, what is his place in History? By what names do the historians mention him? All the venomous epithets are showered upon him. Pages are blackened with invective diatribes condemning Nero, the tyrant, the heartless, the wicked. One Changezkhan sacrificed a few thousand lives to seek pleasure in it and we hate the very name. Then, how are you going to justify your almighty, eternal Nero, who has been, and is still causing numberless tragedies every day, every hour and every minute? How do you think to support his misdoings which surpass those of Changez every single moment? I say why did he create this world – a veritable hell, a place of constant and bitter unrest? Why did the Almighty create man when he had the power not to do it? What is the justification for all this? Do you say, to award the innocent sufferers hereafter and to punish the wrongdoers as well? Well, well: How far shall you justify a man who may dare to inflict wounds upon your body to apply a very soft and soothing ointment upon it afterwards? How far the supporters and organisers of the Gladiator institution were justified in throwing men before the half-starved furious lions to be cared for and well looked after if they could survive and could manage to escape death by the wild beasts? That is why I ask: Why did the conscious supreme being create this world and man in it? To seek pleasure? Where, then, is the difference between him and Nero?

You Mohammadans and Christians: Hindu philosophy shall still linger on to offer another argument. I ask you, what is your answer to the above-mentioned question? You don’t believe in previous birth. Like Hindus, you cannot advance the argument of previous misdoings of the apparently quite innocent sufferers. I ask you, why did the omnipotent labour for six days to create the world through word and each day to say that all was well? Call him today. Show him the past history. Make him study the present situation. Let us see if he dares to say: “All is well.”

From the dungeons of prisons, from the stores of starvation consuming millions upon millions of human beings in slums and huts, from the exploited labourers, patiently or say apathetically watching the procedure of their blood being sucked by the capitalist vampires, and the wastage of human energy that will make a man with the least common sense shiver with horror, and from the preference of throwing the surplus of production in oceans rather than to distribute amongst the needy producers – to the palaces of kings built upon the foundation laid with human bones.... let him see all this and let him say: “All is well.” Why and wherefore? That is my question. You are silent. Alright then, I proceed.

Well, you Hindus, you say all the present sufferers belong to the class of sinners of the previous births. Good. You say the present oppressors were saintly people in their previous births, hence they enjoy power. Let me admit that your ancestors were very shrewd people, they tried to find out theories strong enough to hammer down all the efforts of reason and disbelief. But let us analyse how far this argument can really stand.

From the point of view of the most famous jurists, punishment can be justified only from three or four ends, to meet which it is inflicted upon the wrongdoer. They are retributive, reformative and deterrent. The retributive theory is now being condemned by all the advanced thinkers. Deterrent theory is also following the same fate. Reformative theory is the only one which is essential and indispensable for human progress. It aims at returning the offender as a most competent and a peace-loving citizen to the society. But, what is the nature of punishment inflicted by God upon men, even if we suppose them to be offenders? You say he sends them to be born as a cow, a cat, a tree, a herb or a beast. You enumerate these punishments to be 84 lakhs. I ask you: what is its reformative effect upon man? How many men have met you who say that they were born as a donkey in previous birth for having committed any sin? None. Don’t quote your Puranas. I have no scope to touch your mythologies. Moreover, do you know that the greatest sin in this world is to be poor? Poverty is a sin, it is a punishment. I ask you how far would you appreciate a criminologist, a jurist or a legislator who proposes such measures of punishment which shall inevitably force men to commit more offences? Had not your God thought of this, or he also had to learn these things by experience, but at the cost of untold sufferings to be borne by humanity? What do you think shall be the fate of a man who has been born in a poor and illiterate family of, say, a chamar or a sweeper? He is poor, hence he cannot study. He is hated and shunned by his fellow human beings who think themselves to be his superiors having been born in, say, a higher caste. His ignorance, his poverty and the treatment meted out to him shall harden his heart towards society. Suppose he commits a sin, who shall bear the consequences? God, he or the learned ones of the society? What about the punishment of those people who were deliberately kept ignorant by the haughty and egotist Brahmans, and who had to pay the penalty by bearing the stream of being led (not lead) in their ears for having heard a few sentences of your Sacred Books of learning – the Vedas? If they committed any offence, who was to be responsible for them and who was to bear the brunt? My dear friends, these theories are the inventions of the privileged ones; they justify their usurped power, riches and superiority by the help of these theories. Yes, it was perhaps Upton Sinclair that wrote at some place that just make a man a believer in immortality and then rob him of all his riches and possessions. He shall help you even in that ungrudgingly. The coalition among the religious preachers and possessors of power brought forth jails, gallows, knouts and these theories.

I ask why your omnipotent God does not stop every man when he is committing any sin or offence? He can do it quite easily. Why did he not kill warlords or kill the fury of war in them and thus avoid the catastrophe hurled down on the head of humanity by the Great War? Why does he not just produce a certain sentiment in the mind of the British people to liberate India? Why does he not infuse the altruistic enthusiasm in the hearts of all capitalists to forego their rights of personal possessions of means of production and thus redeem the whole labouring community, nay, the whole human society, from the bondage of capitalism? You want to reason out the practicability of socialist theory, I leave it for your almighty to enforce it. People recognise the merits of socialism inasmuch as the general welfare is concerned. They oppose it under the pretext of its being impracticable. Let the Almighty step in and arrange everything in an orderly fashion. Now don’t try to advance round about arguments, they are out of order. Let me tell you, British rule is here not because God wills it, but because they possess power and we do not dare to oppose them. Not that it is with the help of God that they are keeping us under their subjection, but it is with the help of guns and rifles, bomb and bullets, police and militia, and our apathy, that they are successfully committing the most deplorable sin against society – the outrageous exploitation of one nation by another. Where is God? What is he doing? Is he enjoying all these woes of human race? A Nero, a Changez: Down with him.

Do you ask me how I explain the origin of this world and origin of man? Alright, I tell you, Charles Darwin has tried to throw some light on the subject. Study him. Read Soham Swami’s Common Sense. It shall answer your question to some extent. This is a phenomenon of nature. The accidental mixture of different substances in the shape of nebulae produced this earth. When? Consult history. The same process produced animals and, in the long run, man. Read Darwin’s Origin of Species. And all the later progress is due to man’s constant conflict with nature and his efforts to override it. This, is the briefest possible explanation of the phenomenon.

Your other argument may be just to ask why a child is born blind or lame if not due to his deeds committed in the previous birth? This problem has been explained away by biologists as a mere biological phenomenon. According to them the whole burden rests upon the shoulders of the parents who may be conscious or ignorant of their own deeds which led to mutilation of the child previous to its birth.

Naturally, you may ask another question, though it is quite childish in essence. If no God existed, how did the people come to believe in him? My answer is clear and brief. As they came to believe in ghosts and evil spirits; the only difference is that belief in God is almost universal and the philosophy well developed. Unlike certain of the radicals I would not attribute its origin to the ingenuity of the exploiters who wanted to keep the people under their subjection by preaching the existence of a supreme being and then claiming an authority and sanction from him for their privileged positions, though I do not differ with them on the essential point that all faiths, religions, creeds and such other institutions became in turn the mere supporters of the tyrannical and exploiting institutions, men and classes. Rebellion against king is always a sin, according to every religion.

As regards the origin of God, my own idea is that having realised the limitations of man, his weaknesses and shortcoming having been taken into consideration, God was brought into imaginary existence to encourage man to face boldly all the trying circumstances, to meet all dangers manfully and to check and restrain his outbursts in prosperity and affluence. God, both with his private laws and parental generosity, was imagined and painted in greater details. He was to serve as a deterrent factor when his fury and private laws were discussed, so that man may not become a danger to society. He was to serve as a father, mother, sister and brother, friend and helper, when his parental qualifications were to be explained. So that when man be in great distress, having been betrayed and deserted by all friends, he may find consolation in the idea that an ever true friend, was still there to help him, to support him and that he was almighty and could do anything. Really that was useful to the society in the primitive age. The idea of God is helpful to man in distress.

Society has to fight out this belief as well as was fought the idol worship and the narrow conception of religion. Similarly, when man tries to stand on his own legs and become a realist, he shall have to throw the faith aside, and to face manfully all the distress, trouble, in which the circumstances may throw him. That is exactly my state of affairs. It is not my vanity, my friends. It is my mode of thinking that has made me an atheist. I don’t know whether in my case belief in God and offering of daily prayers which I consider to be most selfish and degraded act on the part of man, whether these prayers, can prove to be helpful or they shall make my case worse still. I have read of atheists facing all troubles quite boldly; so am I trying to stand like a man with an erect head to the last, even on the gallows.

Let us see how I carry on. One friend asked me to pray. When informed of my atheism, he said: “During your last days you will begin to believe.” I said: “No, dear Sir, it shall not be. I will think that to be an act of degradation and demoralisation on my part. For selfish motives I am not going to pray.” Readers and friends: Is this “vanity”? If it is, I stand for it.•

[jatt]

Bhappa are khatris.

khatris have sub clans too ...

[jatt]

Meeting with Bhagat Singh & Release from Jail
(Source: Autobiography of Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji – Meeting with Bhagat Singh, The Great Patriot – Chapter 25)

AT LAST THE day came, It was 6 P.M. on 4th October, 1930. The news of my release was announced and everyone was very happy about it. I was sitting in a blissful solitude within my cell. All the patriots rushed towards my cell to break the news to me and congratulate me. The first to come and congratulate me was Bhai Gajjan Singh (Master). In a matter of minutes other patriots gathered around me and read joyfully the orders of release. I was overwhelmed not so much by the joy of release as by the separation I would have to bear from devoted friends like Bhai Kartar Singh (of Canada). I was overwhelmed by these dual emotions of joy and sorrow when friends came to bid good-bye with loving embraces. The prison officials stood there ready to carry out the order of my release but my feet were reluctant to move away from such dear companions. I embraced everyone of them and after a few affectionate words with each one of them, I left them all with tears in their eyes. The stream separated from the river at last.

When I went out of these prison-wards I met Mohammed Akbar near the central dome. He was smiling and coming towards me. On seeing me he congratulated me for my release. Inattentive to his felicitations, I told him that it was time that he should fulfil his promise. He should not miss the chance. He smiled and said that he had already made arrangement for the meeting with Bhagat Singh. You could now meet him for full two hours. I asked him if he had taken permission from the Superintendent.

Daroga: Before I found it necessary to ask him, the Superintendent was already worried and puzzled and was seeking a way out of a difficult situation. His worry is that you should be quietly released without giving any chance to outsiders to make much noise about your release. He asked me to find a way out of this difficulty. He said, there are regular pickets of people outside, who are waiting for the news of the release of political prisoners. As soon as a political prisoner is released the news spreads like fire and there is a great noise and hubbub of long processions, which are very disturbing to the Government. The Government has issued strict instructions, that the release should be secret and quiet. You see people sitting near the prison gates in regular pickets till sunset you must make some arrangement to send Randhir Singh out secretly and quietly so that we may not be blamed for anything later on.

At that very moment I asked the Superintendent not to worry and suggested to him the plan, saying, “You remember sir, the day Randhir Singh came to this prison, Bhagat Singh who has been sentenced to death submitted an application for permission to meet him, but you rejected it. I believe that if we now allow him to meet Randhir Singh, the meeting may take about two hours. It will quite dark by then and by 8 P.M. we will send Randhir Singh out. Thus strict secrecy about the release will be maintained.” The Superintendent was impressed by this suggestion and gladly issued orders to allow this meeting and you can talk freely as long as you like. I will now give you a warder, who will guide you to Bhagat Singh.
So saying, he sent a prison-warder with me and ordered him to permit us to have an unrestricted meeting. Bhagat Singh was taking his daily stroll in the prison compound. He had been told about the permission granted for this meeting. On seeing me he came running towards me. I was standing outside the fence of the courtyard. He came close to the fence and greeted me with great love and affection, bowing low out of reverence. I also folded my hands and greeted him warmly. The warder moved away when we were together. Even the policemen on duty in the compound kept away from us. We were all alone facing each other.

Bhagat Singh was so overwhelmed by the joy of meeting after months of anxious moments, that tears rolled down his eyes I had hardly met anyone in life who had developed so deep affection and love even before coming into contact with me. It appeared we had known each other for long time. In a rapturous tone he said, “O I can hardly say how happy I am today on having met you at last. Day and night I was restlessly longing for just a short meeting with you. At last the blessed moment has come and my wishes have been fulfilled. After knowing all your great sacrifices and suffering in prison, I had become your keen admirer and passionate devotee. It was the heroism of the great freedom fighters of 1914-15 like you which inspired insignificant patriot like me. All our revolution exploits are nothing compared to the astounding heroic deeds performed by you and your companions. Your own life and struggle for freedom and rights especially impressed me. Munshi Manna Singh perhaps told you with what passionate longing I was thirsting to meet you and talk to you. I should say that my inner attachment and admiration for you brought you back to Lahore prison after sixteen years. When I first sent a message to you within this prison, that I was anxious to meet you I received your divine command to keep the Sikh symbols (beard and hair). I am prepared to abide by your wishes. I am really ashamed and am prepared to tell you frankly that I removed my hair and beard under pressing circumstances. It was for the service of the country that my companions compelled me to give up the Sikh appearance and disguise myself as a sannyasin. So it is in association with the irreligious people that I was compelled to show disrespect to my religious symbols, but now I will certainly do whatever you wish me to do.

I was glad to see Bhagat Singh repentant and humble in his present attitude towards religious symbols. I was deeply impressed by his frank statement of facts, but I could not hesitate in expressing my inner feelings and I said:

“Brother Bhagat Singh ji, I am deeply touched by your love for me. I am also impressed by your spirit of service and patriotic zeal, but I must tell you dear brother, that your companions did not give you good advice. You seem to be seeking something very petty and you became a prey to the evil and mischievous suggestions of your companions. Compared to our times the period in which you participated in the freedom struggle, is a period of great awakening. You could fearlessly take part in the freedom struggle and serve your country and humanity as you wished. But you must be knowing that in our times (1914-15) few and rare souls felt inspired to dedicate their lives to the cause of freedom. In the Punjab only a few Sikhs who could be counted on finger-tips were politically awake, felt the patriotic fervor to fight for freedom. There was a great feeling and political opposition to the heroic Ghadar Leaders and patriots who had come from Canada and America. Every child in the Punjab was opposed to them. I will give you only one example of the moral courage of the great patriot of those days. Bhai Nidhan Singh of Chugga village was a great patriot and fighter for freedom, who inspired hundreds of Indians living in foreign countries to come to India and dedicate their lives to freedom struggle. He spent thousands of rupees from his own pocket for freedom struggle. And yet he did not disguise himself. He came openly by sea but the Government at once made elaborate arrangements to arrest him.

He reached India along with his companions without being detected. He could not be arrested. He came to the Punjab and threw himself heart and soul in the freedom struggle. His heroic deeds for the cause of freedom must be known to you. Warrants for his arrest had been issued, his photograph was widely publicized and a price was set on his head. There was an all out attempt to arrest him. He moved swiftly from one place to another organizing the freedom struggle. There was no sympathy and support for these freedom fighters in the public. The patriots depended mostly on Bhai Nidhan Singh for organization and inspiration. Of course in fearlessness there was none so daring as Kartar Singh Sarabha. One day Kartar Singh Sarabha feared that Bhai Nidhan Singh may be arrested. He was the key figure among the freedom fighters and it was necessary that he should not be arrested soon. Keeping only the political interest in view he suggested to Bhai Nidhan Singh that he should dye his beard and thus change his publicized appearance to some extent. Bhai Nidhan Singh boldly answered that he would never do such a thing and tarnish and disgrace his heroism in the freedom fight. “You can use me as best as you like with this appearance only and do not make any suggestions which would make me a coward” he said. His companions wanted him to fall a prey to their evil suggestions but his determination remained unshaken. For organizing the freedom struggle, he traveled twenty to thirty miles a day and sometimes fearlessly passed close by police posts. He performed such heroic deeds compared to which your plans were insignificant. He did not even agree to change the color of his beard, while you went to the extent of removing your hair and beard.

Bhagat Singh: Actually, I did not murder Saunders. I was of course accused of having murdered him. I considered it a great heroic deed and so took the credit for it. I confessed that I killed Saunders. Whether there was any benefit in it or not, I nevertheless got the credit for the whole deed. Even otherwise there was no escape for me.

I: The ideal of a true patriot is never to seek such petty joys of empty credits. For the joy of getting worldly praise you did not hesitate to fall from a higher spiritual ideal of becoming an apostate from Sikhism, nor did you ever repent over this fall from a much higher ideal. All that you have achieved by this wrong step is some trumpeting of your name and heroism by some papers. You gave up the Guru’s personality for false glory and empty ambition. If you felt that you made a mistake you should have repented and come back to the Khalsa ideal by maintaining a Sikh-like appearance again. Why did you not do it?

Bhagat Singh: I might have kept the Sikh like appearance again, but then I would have lost the friendship and sympathy of my comrade B.K Dutt. Secondly; I would not have got so much publicity as I am getting now. It is true that my sacrifices are insignificant compared to the sacrifices of the freedom fighters of 1914-15. But after such astounding sacrifices they did not get any publicity or praise in the papers. The Sikh papers had very limited circulation. Even they did not reveal all facts of the heroic deeds of patriots like you, because their timid policy prevented them from writing anything frankly. It is the non-Sikh papers which publicized my name widely and it is through them I have acquired all the glory associated with my name. It is a fact that if I had maintained the Sikh appearance and if I had professed myself to be an orthodox Sikh and kept hair and beard the non-Sikh papers would not have written a word about me, just as they did not write a word about you and your companions. Even out of Sikh papers “The Khalsa Akhbar”, Lahore, an urdu paper, dared to write something about you. I know it for certain that Hindu papers are always reluctant to write even a word in praise of Sikh patriots and freedom fighters. They do not like Sikhs being praised for anything. If I had kept hair and beard again and become a Sikh, they would have started belittling me instead of praising me. So I hesitated to keep hair and beard again.

I: On judging what you have said, my dear Bhagat Singh, your ideal of patriotism is very low and frippery. To make such a show of patriotism and service to the country for personal glory is cheap chauvinism and vain jingoism. The patriots of 1914-15 movement suffered and served the country keeping only the selfless service of the motherland in view. They did not have the slightest thought of such cheap publicity and never even in a dream had any ambition of personal glory. It is only in the company of petty minded and evil-motive people that your mind was misled into such vain thoughts of personal glory. The seeking of eminence through newspapers, and honor and glory through propaganda are all superficial things about which it is rightly said in the Guru-Granth Sahib:

Mad are those who trumpet a man’s glory,
Shameless is he who accepts such fame,
He is like a rat who has tied a winnowing basket to his waist,
He now finds it impossible even to get into his hole:

On hearing this Bhagat Singh was deeply moved and said “The ideal of Sikhism is no doubt very high. The world in general hankers after empty glory only. I also drifted in the same passion for personal glory. But today I have realized that all these things are idle exhibition of vanity, conceit and self-glorification. I would have been fortunate if I had got the opportunity of living in close association with you for at least three or four months. If I had got this opportunity to live in your company for three or four months, I would have gained much and all my shortcomings would have disappeared. Now I will do whatever you ask me to do. You now want me to become a kesha-dhari Sikh. I now admit that I made great mistake. Even contrary to this healthy family tradition, I went against the Guru’s instructions and showed irreverence to the Sikh symbols. But there is one more fact, and I would be committing a sin if I conceal it from you. I kept hair and beard merely because there was a long standing tradition in our family to do so. I am very proud to be called a Sikh. But the hard fact is that I was never religious at heart. You will excuse me if I tell you in quite plain terms that at heart I am an atheist. I still do not believe in God. All my companions know it. With all that I am willing to do anything you ask me to do. If you command me, I will keep hair and beard. Alas! if only I had got the opportunity to stay near you a little longer you could have changed my atheistic views.

I: I am very happy that you have revealed the truth of your inner state of mind and have not concealed what is really in your heart. It is absolutely useless to keep religious symbols like hair and beard while you are an atheist at heart, nor would I be proud of making you do such a thing. I am no more anxious about your coming back to Sikh forms, nor am I sorry that you do not have hair and beard. My only anxiety and wish now is that you should die with faith in God. You will definitely die on the scaffold. It would have been better if your atheism had disappeared before you faced death sentence. Even though you are an atheist remember one thing that you will not die, keep it engraved in your heart that you will not die. You will be born again. Your soul is immortal and ageless. It will never be destroyed. It will be born again and again. Know this for dead certain that you will not die. You will take human birth again. Look within and see what you are? Are you a soul, a spirit (Atmo) or just a lump of flesh and blood? Do you think that this self within you which speaks, understands, thinks, reflects on serving humanity and expires after doing great deeds, is nothing beyond bones, blood and flesh and do you think it will end with the end of the body? No, never. Your real self will not be destroyed and you will never die”.

On hearing these words which were uttered in an inspired mood (by the Grace of God), Bhagat Singh stood there mute and inwardly moved. For a moment he lost his physical consciousness and his mind soared high. Speechless, he bowed low, as if some unknown power had taken possession of him. For quite sometime he remained absorbed in deep silence. I shook him with my hands and helped him to stand. On his face there was a strange glow. He came nearer me and stretching his hands through the fence he tried to touch my feet. I held his hands in mine and said that only the Guru’s feet are worth worship and not human feet.
I helped him to stand up and when he had regained control over himself he said “Your words have pierced my heart like an arrow, my disbelief and faithlessness have been terribly shaken, a magnetic influence has changed my inner being. Deep down in my heart now I believe that I will not die and this belief will remain unshaken in my mind, speech and actions. I am that Spirit that death will not destroy. I will not die. After I give up my body I will be born again. Until my new birth my Atma will remain in everlasting glory. When I die on the scaffold I will die with a great spiritual joy. I was brave through sheer will power and asserted that I did not care for death. Within my heart was the deep hidden sorrow of complete extinction after death. Whenever this thought came to mind there was darkness before my mind. The thought of being reduced to nothingness after death created a painful void within my heart. Your words have brought a miraculous change in me. I can now see my future clearly in the light of new consciousness you have given me. The void created by the thoughts of extinction have disappeared. All doubts and delusions have been dispelled.

“I have gained much more strength. I will now die with great moral and spiritual courage. Your exalted life has imparted to me the elixir of spirituality and I feel its ennobling influence. I knew one thing about your life that you always say what you have experienced and your words and actions are always in unison. Not only am I convinced that I will not die, and that I am immortal Atma but I am convinced that there is God and you have had a glimpse of Him. So now you will be extremely pleased to learn that your dear Bhagat Singh is a believer in God and he will die with complete spiritual faith in Sikhism, and according to the Sikh terminology, I will face not death but ascension. The word ascension is a beautiful word and reveals that the soul will rise above the body and go beyond death. After leaving my body my spirit will ascend heaven-wards and will never die. It will be born again and will work for the ideal service of the Motherland and the nation. How fruitful has been this meeting with you.

After this significant end of our meeting we greeted each other and parted in blissful silence. It was quite dark now. I was taken to the office from where I was given unconditional release and sent out of the prison under cover of darkness. I boarded the train from Lahore railway station and came to Amritsar. From Amritsar railway station I walked to the Golden Temple. A Government servant had been given to me to help me in my journey. He carried my bag and bedding and attended to all my needs. Near the clock tower the servant waited with my luggage while I went inside and had a dip in the holy tank. It was 1 A.M. There I sat in peaceful solitude meditating on His Name. I enjoyed this solitude very much. After meditation, I had a mind to meet some friends. But on second thought I wanted to keep this pilgrimage to the Golden Temple, a secret. I knew that if I met some friends there will be unnecessary noise of jubilation about the release and a good deal of trumpeting through processions. I was tempted many times to go and meet Gyani Nahar Singh and Gyani Harbhajan Singh in the Malwai Bunga, but I overcame the temptation. Uptil day break I enjoyed the divine Kirtan of the Golden Temple. Then quietly I slipped out of Amritsar and resumed my journey to Ludhiana.

[jatt]

he came back to sikhi fold again as u can read from autobiography... and this picture confirm it... look at his full sikh appearance

http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/01877/TH05-BHAGAT_SINGH_1877012f.jpg

he was born Sikh and died a Sikh.

[gum_dum]

he came back to sikhi fold again as u can read from autobiography... and this picture confirm it... look at his full sikh appearance

http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/01877/TH05-BHAGAT_SINGH_1877012f.jpg

he was born Sikh and died a Sikh.

This is controversial topic, some say this account was invented. He died atheist, if he was allowed to live few more years then he may have converted to Islam like Nakai sikhs chiefs who were sandhus like Baghat singh.

[jatt]

This is controversial topic, some say this account was invented. He died atheist, if he was allowed to live few more years then he may have converted to Islam like Nakai sikhs chiefs who were sandhus like Baghat singh. You know what Muhammed ali Jinnah would have converted to Hinduism if lived few more years just like his forfathers... did bhagat singh came in your dream and told you that he will convert to islam... there is no big insult to Sikhs than converting.. Sikhs never convert.

[gum_dum]

You know what Muhammed ali Jinnah would have converted to Hinduism if lived few more years just like his forfathers... did bhagat singh came in your dream and told you that he will convert to islam... there is no big insult to Sikhs than converting.. Sikhs never convert.

According to British accounts, most mazhabhi sikhs converted to christianity ;)

[jatt]

According to British accounts, most mazhabhi sikhs converted to christianity ;)

well from british accounts majority of muslims are what my friend ? see two can play game

[gum_dum]

well from british accounts majority of muslims are what my friend ? see two can play game

You can find caste based census reports, I am not making things up.

[jatt]

You can find caste based census reports, I am not making things up.

there are more Christians in Pakistani Punjab than indian Punjab.. our Christians are concentrated in tehsils that ar close to Pakistan border. Those who are low cast In indian Punjab became high cast in Pakistan and some even say they are from family of prophet muhammed and his companions.. some say they are mugals ... lol ...

[jatt]

http://im.rediff.com/news/2012/mar/28zafar4.jpg

this lady says she is direct decendent of mugal emperor bahadur shah jafar.. lol .. this is similar to the story of Pakistanis who claim all sorts of bogus imaginary lineages

[Shah-Jehan]

http://im.rediff.com/news/2012/mar/28zafar4.jpg

this lady says she is direct decendent of mugal emperor bahadur shah jafar.. lol .. this is similar to the story of Pakistanis who claim all sorts of bogus imaginary lineages

it is probably true, there are more than millions of descendants and bahadur Shah Jafar wasn't particularly light skinned at all
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1e/Bahadur_Shah_II_(r._1837-58),_last_Mughal_emperor_of_India.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Bahadur_Shah_Zafar.jpg

[gum_dum]

there are more Christians in Pakistani Punjab than indian Punjab.. our Christians are concentrated in tehsils that ar close to Pakistan border. Those who are low cast In indian Punjab became high cast in Pakistan and some even say they are from family of prophet muhammed and his companions.. some say they are mugals ... lol ...

Christians are low caste in Pakistan as well. Those who claim syed origin are not low caste chuhras or like mazabhis sikhs. They are most likely brahmin converts or from some other because they don't look like low caste people.

And lohars here claim mughal origin but they are obviously not mughals.

[jatt]

Christians are low caste in Pakistan as well. Those who claim syed origin are not low caste chuhras or like mazabhis sikhs. They are most likely brahmin converts or from some other because they don't look like low caste people.

And lohars here claim mughal origin but they are obviously not mughals.

thing is its not easy to tell whos who in Pakistan.. low cast if rich don't look unkempt and dark.. maybe they converted for getting rewards in cash n women and later on adopted royal sounding last names..

[gum_dum]

thing is its not easy to tell whos who in Pakistan.. low cast if rich don't look unkempt and dark.. maybe they converted for getting rewards in cash n women and later on adopted royal sounding last names..

Some people claim different origins when they move to cities, same is the case in Indian punjab. Being rich didn't help Akmal brothers looks lol

[jatt]

Some people claim different origins when they move to cities, same is the case in Indian punjab. Being rich didn't help Akmal brothers looks lol

in india it is not the case.... some low casts don't look low casts at all

[gum_dum]

in india it is not the case.... some low casts don't look low casts at all

See my avatar, he also claim some ancient kahkzan origin. Probably to do with the fact that he is ''kami'' which does not mean chuhra/mussali. Does he look low caste to you? lol

So what do you mean by low caste? kami people or chuhras/mussalis which is distinct tribe in punjab?

[jatt]

See my avatar, he also claim some ancient kahkzan origin. Probably to do with the fact that he is ''kami'' which does not mean chuhra/mussali. Does he look low caste to you? lol

So what do you mean by low caste? kami people or chuhras/mussalis which is distinct tribe in punjab?

buddy there was a friend of mine at Amritsar whom would been mistaken for white dude in western nation for brown hair and light eyes which gave him European sort of look.. he was in love with this ugly jatt girl.. tried his level best to impress girls family but couldn't.. they fled n get married but the girls family beat him up and forced girl for divorce.. thing is in our side some low casts are dong well and have good enough lifestyle and they don't look poor...

low casts usually are nayee, chura and chamar casts

[gum_dum]

buddy there was a friend of mine at Amritsar whom would been mistaken for white dude in western nation for brown hair and light eyes which gave him European sort of look.. he was in love with this ugly jatt girl.. tried his level best to impress girls family but couldn't.. they fled n get married but the girls family beat him up and forced girl for divorce.. thing is in our side some low casts are dong well and have good enough lifestyle and they don't look poor...

low casts usually are nayee, chura and chamar casts

ya nai, chamar and chuhras here are different looking as well. Anyway looking like white will be exageration I bet. People here don't look white from any caste even with light eyes.

[jatt]

ya nai, chamar and chuhras here are different looking as well. Anyway looking like white will be exageration I bet. People here don't look white from any caste even with light eyes. what I meant was there are people who are very light skin yet are low casts. for example if this guy had light skin n eyes he would look European

http://bhoolomat.com/images/casepic/1309866825.jpg

[gum_dum]

what I meant was there are people who are very light skin yet are low casts. for example if this guy had light skin n eyes he would look European

http://bhoolomat.com/images/casepic/1309866825.jpg

Muhammad Yousef is christian convert

http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/England+v+Pakistan+2nd+Test+Day+One+_obyB5VICZDl.j pg

He look more like high caste a part from skin tone then Akmal brothers who are supposed to be high caste, or at least they claim it. So it depends.

[jatt]

indian prime minister modi is low cast as well

[Tyrone Jackson]

That was long ago, in that case the Kingdom of Bengal ruled by the Nawabs would include all of Bengal, Bihar and Orissa.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/85/1776_Rennell_-_Dury_Wall_Map_of_Bihar_and_Bengal,_India_-_Geographicus_-_BaharBengal-dury-1776.jpg/1280px-1776_Rennell_-_Dury_Wall_Map_of_Bihar_and_Bengal,_India_-_Geographicus_-_BaharBengal-dury-1776.jpg
Nawab of Bengal occupied Bihar but never had rule over it as they faced resistance from a lot of places. And it was Turkic rulers not Bengalis that were in charge so Bihar is not Bengal at all.

[Shah-Jehan]

Nawab of Bengal occupied Bihar but never had rule over it as they faced resistance from a lot of places. And it was Turkic rulers not Bengalis that were in charge so Bihar is not Bengal at all.

No, the areas shown in the picture (Most of bihar and Northern Orissa) were directly ruled by the Nawabs. There were a lot of dynasties, but none of them were Turkic, Murshid Quli Khan for e.g. was an Oriya Brahmin converted Muslim. Besides, most of the concubines of the nawabs were Bengali and most of them had become "Bengalised" leading to their descendants such as the Nawab family extant in Murshidabad or their relatives such as Muhammad Bogra, Iskender Mirza etc spread out in Bangladesh.

[Tyrone Jackson]

No, the areas shown in the picture (Most of bihar and Northern Orissa) were directly ruled by the Nawabs. There were a lot of dynasties, but none of them were Turkic, Murshid Quli Khan for e.g. was an Oriya Brahmin converted Muslim. Besides, most of the concubines of the nawabs were Bengali and most of them had become "Bengalised" leading to their descendants such as the Nawab family extant in Murshidabad or their relatives such as Muhammad Bogra, Iskender Mirza etc spread out in Bangladesh.
There was no direct control in most of Bihar, at the time it was ruled by feudal landlords of Bhumihar or Rajput origin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bettiah_Raj
Thats just one example, there were others spread throughout the region that either paid tribute or refused to pay tribute. However there was very little direct control. And the Nawab of Bengal has foreign origin, Bengali lol come on.

[Tyrone Jackson]

No wonder bhaiyas hindus from UP/Bihar literary worship pathans of these regions. :laugh: Did you know up/bihari converted rajpoots started to identify as pathans? They were known as divani pathans, while proper pashtuns were known as nasli (nasli mean racially) pathans.
I know you hate Biharis but the average Bihari got no ill will against you people. Bihari Muslims love Pakistan in fact lol. And no one in Bihar worships Pathans, maybe other Muslims do but idk. Rohilla Pathan zamindars begged for Rajput protection during Maoist insurgency in the 80's.

[gum_dum]

I know you hate Biharis but the average Bihari got no ill will against you people. Bihari Muslims love Pakistan in fact lol. And no one in Bihar worships Pathans, maybe other Muslims do but idk. Rohilla Pathan zamindars begged for Rajput protection during Maoist insurgency in the 80's.

This was just troll debate with "jatt". But its true, muslim rajput started to identify as pathans after converting in Bihar. They were known as divani pathans.

[lameduck]

^^ my guess is that lot of Pashtun ancestry in the region(current North India) are just high caste converts since they dont look like general population they got termed as pashtun, I read somewhere that some gujjers from Rajasthan settled in Deccan region of South India and people started calling them pathans there.

[Tyrone Jackson]

^^ my guess is that lot of Pashtun ancestry in the region(current North India) are just high caste converts since they dont look like general population they got termed as pashtun, I read somewhere that some gujjers from Rajasthan settled in Deccan region of South India and people started calling them pathans there.
Yes, majority of "Pathans" in India are just high caste converts who wanted to retain their status. However I have seen some Muslims who do indeed look like they have diluted Afghan ancestry. Rajasthani Gurjars in South India? Sounds interesting. There are South Indian warriors who came to Rajasthan and became Rajputs, they are known as Solanki. Although it is heavily diluted with local mixture.

[Shah-Jehan]

There was no direct control in most of Bihar, at the time it was ruled by feudal landlords of Bhumihar or Rajput origin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bettiah_Raj
Thats just one example, there were others spread throughout the region that either paid tribute or refused to pay tribute. However there was very little direct control. And the Nawab of Bengal has foreign origin, Bengali lol come on.

This was located at the North-western edge of Bihar. I bet just like other zamindaris even located in Bengal such as the Burdwan Raj, Cooch Behar etc, they also were under nominal Murshidabadi control and paid tribute/taxes to the Nawabs. It was just like a case of princely states within the British Raj for e.g. Also, important establishments like Patna for were infact under the Nawabs control.

Well, their paternal descent was foreign, but they took Bengali concubines/spouses and their descendants became Bengalised, just like for e.g. the dynasty of Cooch Behar who were originally Koch, became Bengali speaking and lost their Rajbangshi language or even the dynasty of Burdwan which was Punjabi in origin.

[lameduck]

Yes, majority of "Pathans" in India are just high caste converts who wanted to retain their status. However I have seen some Muslims who do indeed look like they have diluted Afghan ancestry. Rajasthani Gurjars in South India? Sounds interesting. There are South Indian warriors who came to Rajasthan and became Rajputs, they are known as Solanki. Although it is heavily diluted with local mixture.

Its very much possible There is no doubt about it that significant number of Indian Muslims do have genuine foreign ancestry, the gujer comment I read on another forum.

[Tyrone Jackson]

This was located at the North-western edge of Bihar. I bet just like other zamindaris even located in Bengal such as the Burdwan Raj, Cooch Behar etc, they also were under nominal Murshidabadi control and paid tribute/taxes to the Nawabs. It was just like a case of princely states within the British Raj for e.g. Also, important establishments like Patna for were infact under the Nawabs control.

Well, their paternal descent was foreign, but they took Bengali concubines/spouses and their descendants became Bengalised, just like for e.g. the dynasty of Cooch Behar who were originally Koch, became Bengali speaking and lost their Rajbangshi language or even the dynasty of Burdwan which was Punjabi in origin.
The Bettiah Raj grew to encompass most of North Bihar. And paying tribute is different to direct rule, the Nawab of Bengal knew he could not force direct control so he settled with tributes. Many of the Purbia Rajas provided stiff resistance throughout the Nawabs occupation of the region. Most of the zamindari descendants tell of how there ancestors slaughtered thousands of the Nawabs troops.

These Nawab of the Bengal types were considered "Ashraf" Muslims and looked down on there native subjects. He certainly wasn't a Bengali, his descendants may be different due to intermarriage but if you were to ask him what he considered himself then it would most likely be to his paternal descent.

[Shah-Jehan]

The Bettiah Raj grew to encompass most of North Bihar. And paying tribute is different to direct rule, the Nawab of Bengal knew he could not force direct control so he settled with tributes. Many of the Purbia Rajas provided stiff resistance throughout the Nawabs occupation of the region. Most of the zamindari descendants tell of how there ancestors slaughtered thousands of the Nawabs troops.

These Nawab of the Bengal types were considered "Ashraf" Muslims and looked down on there native subjects. He certainly wasn't a Bengali, his descendants may be different due to intermarriage but if you were to ask him what he considered himself then it would most likely be to his paternal descent.
LOL, the Muslim caste system prevalent in other parts of Southern Asia is not applicable to the Bengal region because the region has a totally different socio-cultural outlook to things, even the Hindu caste system was introduced in its full state very recently during the rule of the Sena dynasty 1160 AD when Brahmins from different regions like Kanauj, Maithil, Southern India etc were brought to Bengal, although previously Brahmins did exist in Bengal, but had not much high status because Bengal was buddhist for much of its early history. That is why there are not many Bengali Rajputs and even the Bengali that are Kshatriya are descendants of Rajbangshi, Koch and foreigners. As I wrote previously in this thread, Bengal has seen a massive flow of Pashtuns from Northern India/Bihar during the Mughal invasions, but unlike other parts of South Asia, there are no people who claim to be pathans. All of their descendants became Bengali ethno-linguistically and culturally and lost their separate identities. Even during the rule of the Ilyas Shahi dynasty of the Bengal sultanate (origanally Persian), Islamic prose in highly Sanskritised Bengali such as Rasul Vijaya (Victory of the Prophet), totally unheard of in other parts of South Asia were composed where most literature was in Persian. The elite of Muslim society in Bengal are just wealthy native converts from various Hindu castes especially Kulin Brahmis and Kayasthas, along with a minority of Muslims who claim paternal descent from Arabia, Persia etc. My family should be termed Ashraf by your logic because my paternal side is of Persian descent, but truthfully my maternal side is much more prestigious in nature and they are native Kulin Brahmin converts and come from a respected Zamindari background.

[Tyrone Jackson]

LOL, the Muslim caste system prevalent in other parts of Southern Asia is not applicable to the Bengal region because the region has a totally different socio-cultural outlook to things, even the Hindu caste system was introduced in its full state very recently during the rule of the Sena dynasty 1160 AD when Brahmins from different regions like Kanauj, Maithil, Southern India etc were brought to Bengal, although previously Brahmins did exist in Bengal, but had not much high status because Bengal was buddhist for much of its early history. That is why there are not many Bengali Rajputs and even the Bengali that are Kshatriya are descendants of Rajbangshi, Koch and foreigners. As I wrote previously in this thread, Bengal has seen a massive flow of Pashtuns from Northern India/Bihar during the Mughal invasions, but unlike other parts of South Asia, there are no people who claim to be pathans. All of their descendants became Bengali ethno-linguistically and culturally and lost their separate identities. Even during the rule of the Ilyas Shahi dynasty of the Bengal sultanate (origanally Persian), Islamic prose in highly Sanskritised Bengali such as Rasul Vijaya (Victory of the Prophet), totally unheard of in other parts of South Asia were composed where most literature was in Persian. The elite of Muslim society in Bengal are just wealthy native converts from various Hindu castes especially Kulin Brahmis and Kayasthas, along with a minority of Muslims who claim paternal descent from Arabia, Persia etc. My family should be termed Ashraf by your logic because my paternal side is of Persian descent, but truthfully my maternal side is much more prestigious in nature and they are native Kulin Brahmin converts and come from a respected Zamindari background.
Many South Asian Muslims claim foreign ancestry, Pakistanis are mostly exempt since they are mainly high caste converts. Almost every Bengali I have met has claimed foreign ancestry but you know what? They all looked like West Bengalis with minor Mongoloid admix in some individuals. The region of Bengal was named after a Dravidian speaking tribe called Vang. And there are no Rajputs in Bengal, there is one group that claimed to be Rajput but it is rejected by every clan.

Claiming the Nawab of Bengal is Bengali is like us Rajasthanis claiming that Akbar was one of us because he married a Rajasthai princess lol. If you want to claim them then then cool but don't start claiming that "Bengalis ruled Bihar" cause that's just a blatant lie.

[armenianbodyhair]

Dear moderators all the OWD south Asians besides butlerking have been gathered in one thread. Hit them with the ban hammer now while they are all conveniently spewing curry at each other. You can spare shah-jahan, he's chill.

[Shah-Jehan]

Many South Asian Muslims claim foreign ancestry, Pakistanis are mostly exempt since they are mainly high caste converts. Almost every Bengali I have met has claimed foreign ancestry but you know what? They all looked like West Bengalis with minor Mongoloid admix in some individuals.
I don't know of any Bengali that claims foreign ancestry, even my Persian ancestry is not known to outsiders outside of the family and I only put it here because it is an athroforum. Majority of South Asian Muslims just like South Asians of any religion are all from lower castes with significant high caste descendants just like any other population.


The region of Bengal was named after a Dravidian speaking tribe called Vang. And there are no Rajputs in Bengal, there is one group that claimed to be Rajput but it is rejected by every clan.
Bengal is derived from the Indo-Aryan kingdom of Vanga and has nothing to do with the Dravidian tribe "Bang" which is actually hypothetical and not proven. AND yes I did say the same thing that there are no Bengali Rajputs but there are indeed very few Bengali Khsatriya.



Claiming the Nawab of Bengal is Bengali is like us Rajasthanis claiming that Akbar was one of us because he married a Rajasthai princess lol. If you want to claim them then then cool but don't start claiming that "Bengalis ruled Bihar" cause that's just a blatant lie.
That is not even close to what I said, but that they became linguistically and culturally Bengali overtime, just like the Mughals did and were tied to North Indian Muslim culture and the language "Urdu". I am still stuck in the matter that most of Bihar was ruled by the Nawabs (Whether nominally or directly) who succeeded the Mughals in ruling the area. Even if the Nawabs did not rule Bihar, the Pala dynasty of Bengal still ruled most of Southern Asia.

[Tyrone Jackson]

I don't know of any Bengali that claims foreign ancestry, even my Persian ancestry is not known to outsiders outside of the family and I only put it here because it is an athroforum. Majority of South Asian Muslims just like South Asians of any religion are all from lower castes with significant high caste descendants just like any other population.


Bengal is derived from the Indo-Aryan kingdom of Vanga and has nothing to do with the Dravidian tribe "Bang" which is actually hypothetical and not proven. AND yes I did say the same thing that there are no Bengali Rajputs but there are indeed very few Bengali Khsatriya.



That is not even close to what I said, but that they became linguistically and culturally Bengali overtime, just like the Mughals did and were tied to North Indian Muslim culture and the language "Urdu". I am still stuck in the matter that most of Bihar was ruled by the Nawabs (Whether nominally or directly) who succeeded the Mughals in ruling the area. Even if the Nawabs did not rule Bihar, the Pala dynasty of Bengal still ruled most of Southern Asia.
Lol off topic but Vang were Dravidian according to most sources.

Here's a pic of the Pala empire at its peak:
http://i59.tinypic.com/e1b6up.jpg
Most of the Maps of the Pala Empire are fake, it's hardly most of South Asia. At the time that the Palas were ruling "most of South Asia" most of NW India was under the Gurjara Pratiharas from Rajasthan and Gujarat and Pakistani areas had there own Nawabs. And the Maurya and Gupta Empire from Bihar ruled a much larger Empire then the Palas did.

[lameduck]

Dear moderators all the OWD south Asians besides butlerking have been gathered in one thread. Hit them with the ban hammer now while they are all conveniently spewing curry at each other. You can spare shah-jahan, he's chill.

OWD is trademark of camel races, please leave others alone.

[armenianbodyhair]

OWD is trademark of camel races, please leave others alone.

European cultural forum.

[The Illyrian Warrior]

If there's a God then he'd be reincarnated as jatt, teh only divine specie.

[Shah-Jehan]

Lol off topic but Vang were Dravidian according to most sources.

Here's a pic of the Pala empire at its peak:
http://i59.tinypic.com/e1b6up.jpg
Most of the Maps of the Pala Empire are fake, it's hardly most of South Asia. At the time that the Palas were ruling "most of South Asia" most of NW India was under the Gurjara Pratiharas from Rajasthan and Gujarat and Pakistani areas had there own Nawabs. And the Maurya and Gupta Empire from Bihar ruled a much larger Empire then the Palas did.

Not really, the Palas had extended their empire to present-day Afghanistan in the West and this is proven by various inscriptions discovered.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Pala_Empire_(Dharmapala).gif
http://images-mediawiki-sites.thefullwiki.org/09/3/0/1/26206132490096204.jpg

[lameduck]

European cultural forum.

Its for MODS to decide to allow or not allow What on a European forum not someone belonging to a repulsive region.

[Tyrone Jackson]

Not really, the Palas had extended their empire to present-day Afghanistan in the West and this is proven by various inscriptions discovered.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Pala_Empire_(Dharmapala).gif
http://images-mediawiki-sites.thefullwiki.org/09/3/0/1/26206132490096204.jpg
Lol wtf, at the time Pakistan and Afghanistan were under the Kabul Shahi of Punjab and NW Indian was under Pratiharas.
@gum dum @lameduck do you recall any "Bengali" Palas ruling Punjab or KPK? I'm looking at the history of these regions right now and none of them mention any Pala rulers.

[armenianbodyhair]

Its for MODS to decide to allow or not allow What on a European forum not someone belonging to a repulsive region.

Its for mods to decide period, not your self-hating insecure racist brown ass. Seriously hating on black people won't make you more white or European. STFU.

[gum_dum]

Lol wtf, at the time Pakistan and Afghanistan were under the Kabul Shahi of Punjab and NW Indian was under Pratiharas.
@gum dum @lameduck do you recall any "Bengali" Palas ruling Punjab or KPK? I'm looking at the history of these regions right now and none of them mention any Pala rulers.

This map never made any sense.

[Skipper]

There are South Indian warriors who came to Rajasthan and became Rajputs, they are known as Solanki. Although it is heavily diluted with local mixture.

Not true. Solankis don't have any connection with the Chalukyas of South India. Solankis were indigenous to the region they came to rule.

[Tyrone Jackson]

Not true. Solankis don't have any connection with the Chalukyas of South India. Solankis were indigenous to the region they came to rule.
I remember reading that somewhere, I know that there is a South Indian origin Rajput tribe. It might be Rathore.

[Berlin88]

Lol wtf, at the time Pakistan and Afghanistan were under the Kabul Shahi of Punjab and NW Indian was under Pratiharas. @gum dum @lameduck do you recall any "Bengali" Palas ruling Punjab or KPK? I'm looking at the history of these regions right now and none of them mention any Pala rulers.

History is written by the victors. History of Afghanistan # Palas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Afghanistan#Palas


The Pāla's were a Buddhist and Vaishnav Hindu Bengali dynasty of India, which lasted for four centuries (750-1120 CE). Dharmapala expanded the empire into the northern parts of the Indian Subcontinent. This triggered once again the power struggle for the control of the subcontinent. Devapala, successor of Dharmapala, extended the empire even further, covering much of South Asia and several other territories. His empire stretched from Assam and Utkala in the east, and Afghanistan in the north-west and Deccan in the south. According to Pala copperplate inscription Devapala exterminated the Utkalas, conquered the Pragjyotisha (Assam), shattered the pride of the Huna, and humbled the lords of Pratiharas, Gurjara and the Dravidas. The Pala Empire eventually disintegrated in the 12th century CE under the attack of the Sena dynasty.

Besides that, the Rajatarangini (written Sanskrit historical chronicle of the NW from the POV of Kalhana, a Kashmiri brahmin), mentions the rising power of the Palas ( Damaras, Tantris, Diviras, Lavangas, Khashas, and Thakurs) frequently.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=DqAHweWRUs0C&pg=PA188&dq=palas,+kabul+shahi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8J0qVfnbBcXC7ga434CABw&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=palas%2C%20kabul%20shahi&f=false



Lol wtf, at the time Pakistan and Afghanistan were under the Kabul Shahi of Punjab and NW Indian was under Pratiharas. @gum dum @lameduck do you recall any "Bengali" Palas ruling Punjab or KPK? I'm looking at the history of these regions right now and none of them mention any Pala rulers.

c. A.D. 770-810-

"The formal ceremony of investiture of Chakrayudha (installed on the throne of Kanauj) was attended by the rulers of Bhoja, Matsya, Madra, Kuru, Yadu, Yavana, Avanti, Gandhara, and Kira. These states were not annexed by Dharmapala, but their rulers acknowledged his suzerainty."

"The Pala empire under Dharmapala was fairly extensive. It comprised Bengal and Bihar, directly ruled by him.... Beyond Kanauj, there were a large number of vassal states in the Punjab, Western Hill States, Rajputana, Malwa and Berar whose rulers acknowledged Dharmapala as their overlord. According to tradition, Nepal was also a vassal state of Dharmapala. The Monghyr copper-plate grant of Devapala credits Dharmapala with conquest up to Kedarnath in the north".

"Devapala's victory in the south could only have a temporary significance. His main field of activity lay in the north and the temporary eclipse of the Pratiharas and the Rashtrakutas left him in undisputed possession of north India. He carried his arms as far as the Sindhu, 'a feat to which no other ruler of Bengal could lay claim for the next thousand years'."

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Wk4_ICH_g1EC&pg=PA278&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

This is besides the fact epigraphic grants mention that feudatories supplied soldiers from various nationalities (including Malava, Khasa, Huna, Kulika) to the suzerain and therefore, subsequent kings post Dharmapala, mention the Palas recruited mercenary soldiers from Karnata and Lata (southern Gujarat), while cavalry horses were imported from the Kambojas, and the Kamboja cavalry constitued an important element in the Pala armed forces.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=J7RKoMeAtpUC&pg=PA63&lpg=PA63&dq=the+palas,+soldiers,+lata&source=bl&ots=y63x2YUsnU&sig=L_jH8pUJ3sfNe2qivxVLJdC6AZg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=u40qVcWkFZSQ7AavkYCwDw&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=the%20palas%2C%20soldiers%2C%20lata&f=false

both the Palas and Rashtrakutas teamed up to keep the Pratiharas in check vis marital alliances, Devapala himself was born of Rannadevi, a Rashtrakuta princess.

"The Gurjara-Pratihara king, in the first part of the tenth century, was entitled Aryavarta-Maharajadhiraja, the lord of great kings of the land of the Aryans, but was himself subordinate to the Rashtrakuta or Ballahara king, as the Arabs call him, who was 'on top of all kings of Al-Hind'.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=bCVyhH5VDjAC&pg=PA283&dq=palas+of+gujarat&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CJEqVaDAD47fav_9gbgK&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=palas%20of%20gujarat&f=false

[Shah-Jehan]

History is written by the victors. History of Afghanistan # Palas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Afghanistan#Palas



Besides that, the Rajatarangini (written Sanskrit historical chronicle of the NW from the POV of Kalhana, a Kashmiri brahmin), mentions the rising power of the Palas ( Damaras, Tantris, Diviras, Lavangas, Khashas, and Thakurs) frequently.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=DqAHweWRUs0C&pg=PA188&dq=palas,+kabul+shahi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8J0qVfnbBcXC7ga434CABw&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=palas%2C%20kabul%20shahi&f=false




c. A.D. 770-810-

"The formal ceremony of investiture of Chakrayudha (installed on the throne of Kanauj) was attended by the rulers of Bhoja, Matsya, Madra, Kuru, Yadu, Yavana, Avanti, Gandhara, and Kira. These states were not annexed by Dharmapala, but their rulers acknowledged his suzerainty."

"The Pala empire under Dharmapala was fairly extensive. It comprised Bengal and Bihar, directly ruled by him.... Beyond Kanauj, there were a large number of vassal states in the Punjab, Western Hill States, Rajputana, Malwa and Berar whose rulers acknowledged Dharmapala as their overlord. According to tradition, Nepal was also a vassal state of Dharmapala. The Monghyr copper-plate grant of Devapala credits Dharmapala with conquest up to Kedarnath in the north".

"Devapala's victory in the south could only have a temporary significance. His main field of activity lay in the north and the temporary eclipse of the Pratiharas and the Rashtrakutas left him in undisputed possession of north India. He carried his arms as far as the Sindhu, 'a feat to which no other ruler of Bengal could lay claim for the next thousand years'."

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Wk4_ICH_g1EC&pg=PA278&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

This is besides the fact epigraphic grants mention that feudatories supplied soldiers from various nationalities (including Malava, Khasa, Huna, Kulika) to the suzerain and therefore, subsequent kings post Dharmapala, mention the Palas recruited mercenary soldiers from Karnata and Lata (southern Gujarat), while cavalry horses were imported from the Kambojas, and the Kamboja cavalry constitued an important element in the Pala armed forces.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=J7RKoMeAtpUC&pg=PA63&lpg=PA63&dq=the+palas,+soldiers,+lata&source=bl&ots=y63x2YUsnU&sig=L_jH8pUJ3sfNe2qivxVLJdC6AZg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=u40qVcWkFZSQ7AavkYCwDw&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=the%20palas%2C%20soldiers%2C%20lata&f=false

both the Palas and Rashtrakutas teamed up to keep the Pratiharas in check vis marital alliances, Devapala himself was born of Rannadevi, a Rashtrakuta princess.

"The Gurjara-Pratihara king, in the first part of the tenth century, was entitled Aryavarta-Maharajadhiraja, the lord of great kings of the land of the Aryans, but was himself subordinate to the Rashtrakuta or Ballahara king, as the Arabs call him, who was 'on top of all kings of Al-Hind'.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=bCVyhH5VDjAC&pg=PA283&dq=palas+of+gujarat&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CJEqVaDAD47fav_9gbgK&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=palas%20of%20gujarat&f=false

Yes, thank you.

[Berlin88]

I remember reading that somewhere, I know that there is a South Indian origin Rajput tribe. It might be Rathore.

Their ancestral claim to the imperial Rashtrakutas may be justified. The historical legacy of Kannauj came to a halt when the last of the Gahadwala rulers, Jai Chand, was defeated by Mohammed of Ghor, causing the Rathore rajputs to flee to Rajasthan. :p

"Traditionally, the Rathors have been the rulers of the Jodhpur state. The claim their descent from Rama of Ayodhya and the original name of their clan was Rashtrakuta, which later on crystallised into the word Rathor. The Rashtrakutas ruled over the Deccan during the 9th and 10th centuries but were ousted by the Chalukyas in 973 A.D and so they moved to Kannauj. Here they founded a new dynasty of Gahadwala (Gaharwar)."

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=4QWlJGORFwQC&pg=PA653&dq=rathore+rajput,+rashtrakuta&hl=en&sa=X&ei=46MqVfHeLcWa7Aaji4DwBQ&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=rathore%20rajput%2C%20rashtrakuta&f=false
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-TsMl0vSc0gC&pg=PA93&dq=rathore+rajput,+rashtrakuta&hl=en&sa=X&ei=46MqVfHeLcWa7Aaji4DwBQ&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=rathore%20rajput%2C%20rashtrakuta&f=false

"The Rashtrakuta principality of Badaun was conquered by Qutb-uddin in 1202 A.D but princes of the dynasty probably continued to rule in Kanyakubja-desa (Kannauj) for some years more. Siha "Rathoda" might have been a descendant of this dynasty who migrated to Rajputana after its downfall."

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Ldo1QtQigosC&pg=PA336&dq=rathore+rajput,+rashtrakuta&hl=en&sa=X&ei=t6gqVeiEEsO07gbPt4DwBg&ved=0CFMQ6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=rathore%20rajput%2C%20rashtrakuta&f=false

[Tyrone Jackson]

History is written by the victors. History of Afghanistan # Palas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Afghanistan#Palas



Besides that, the Rajatarangini (written Sanskrit historical chronicle of the NW from the POV of Kalhana, a Kashmiri brahmin), mentions the rising power of the Palas ( Damaras, Tantris, Diviras, Lavangas, Khashas, and Thakurs) frequently.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=DqAHweWRUs0C&pg=PA188&dq=palas,+kabul+shahi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8J0qVfnbBcXC7ga434CABw&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=palas%2C%20kabul%20shahi&f=false




c. A.D. 770-810-

"The formal ceremony of investiture of Chakrayudha (installed on the throne of Kanauj) was attended by the rulers of Bhoja, Matsya, Madra, Kuru, Yadu, Yavana, Avanti, Gandhara, and Kira. These states were not annexed by Dharmapala, but their rulers acknowledged his suzerainty."

"The Pala empire under Dharmapala was fairly extensive. It comprised Bengal and Bihar, directly ruled by him.... Beyond Kanauj, there were a large number of vassal states in the Punjab, Western Hill States, Rajputana, Malwa and Berar whose rulers acknowledged Dharmapala as their overlord. According to tradition, Nepal was also a vassal state of Dharmapala. The Monghyr copper-plate grant of Devapala credits Dharmapala with conquest up to Kedarnath in the north".

"Devapala's victory in the south could only have a temporary significance. His main field of activity lay in the north and the temporary eclipse of the Pratiharas and the Rashtrakutas left him in undisputed possession of north India. He carried his arms as far as the Sindhu, 'a feat to which no other ruler of Bengal could lay claim for the next thousand years'."

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Wk4_ICH_g1EC&pg=PA278&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

This is besides the fact epigraphic grants mention that feudatories supplied soldiers from various nationalities (including Malava, Khasa, Huna, Kulika) to the suzerain and therefore, subsequent kings post Dharmapala, mention the Palas recruited mercenary soldiers from Karnata and Lata (southern Gujarat), while cavalry horses were imported from the Kambojas, and the Kamboja cavalry constitued an important element in the Pala armed forces.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=J7RKoMeAtpUC&pg=PA63&lpg=PA63&dq=the+palas,+soldiers,+lata&source=bl&ots=y63x2YUsnU&sig=L_jH8pUJ3sfNe2qivxVLJdC6AZg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=u40qVcWkFZSQ7AavkYCwDw&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=the%20palas%2C%20soldiers%2C%20lata&f=false

both the Palas and Rashtrakutas teamed up to keep the Pratiharas in check vis marital alliances, Devapala himself was born of Rannadevi, a Rashtrakuta princess.

"The Gurjara-Pratihara king, in the first part of the tenth century, was entitled Aryavarta-Maharajadhiraja, the lord of great kings of the land of the Aryans, but was himself subordinate to the Rashtrakuta or Ballahara king, as the Arabs call him, who was 'on top of all kings of Al-Hind'.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=bCVyhH5VDjAC&pg=PA283&dq=palas+of+gujarat&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CJEqVaDAD47fav_9gbgK&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=palas%20of%20gujarat&f=false
Interesting, I learned something new today. I guess since they never enforced direct control, the people of the NW must have forgot about them. A great South Asian Empire though. However the Pratiharas did get there revenge on the Palas as the they managed to capture Bihar and North Bengal. The Palas were also weakened by an invasion/raid by the Chola Empire which hurt them significantly. Overall I would say they are on the same level as the Praticharas of Gujarat/Rajasthan who they would not have been able to contain without the Rashtrakurthas. They definetly weren't on the same level as the Mauryas and Guptas of Bihar who managed to conquer most of South India as well.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=CeEmpfmbxKEC&pg=SL2-PA36&dq=pratiharas+pala&hl=en&sa=X&ei=M6wqVdnPJcXjaPyxgLgL&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=pratiharas%20pala&f=false

[gum_dum]

Arabs invaded Sindh in 7th century. South Punjab/Multan areas were under either arab or later on Ismaili sect of muslims. But upper punjab region was ruled by native hindu shahis till 10th century AD, when Ghaznavi defeated them. We don't know exact clans they belonged to, there are lots of theories. From historical sources there is only mention of tribe named ''kakar''.

Men from kakar tribe fought Ghaznavi forces. Kakars were hindus, so some historians identify them with modern day khokhars. Another theory is they were ghakkars, but ghakkars claim persian origin and not hindu.

[Tyrone Jackson]

Their ancestral claim to the imperial Rashtrakutas may be justified. The historical legacy of Kannauj came to a halt when the last of the Gahadwala rulers, Jai Chand, was defeated by Mohammed of Ghor, causing the Rathore rajputs to flee to Rajasthan. :p

"Traditionally, the Rathors have been the rulers of the Jodhpur state. The claim their descent from Rama of Ayodhya and the original name of their clan was Rashtrakuta, which later on crystallised into the word Rathor. The Rashtrakutas ruled over the Deccan during the 9th and 10th centuries but were ousted by the Chalukyas in 973 A.D and so they moved to Kannauj. Here they founded a new dynasty of Gahadwala (Gaharwar)."

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=4QWlJGORFwQC&pg=PA653&dq=rathore+rajput,+rashtrakuta&hl=en&sa=X&ei=46MqVfHeLcWa7Aaji4DwBQ&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=rathore%20rajput%2C%20rashtrakuta&f=false
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-TsMl0vSc0gC&pg=PA93&dq=rathore+rajput,+rashtrakuta&hl=en&sa=X&ei=46MqVfHeLcWa7Aaji4DwBQ&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=rathore%20rajput%2C%20rashtrakuta&f=false

"The Rashtrakuta principality of Badaun was conquered by Qutb-uddin in 1202 A.D but princes of the dynasty probably continued to rule in Kanyakubja-desa (Kannauj) for some years more. Siha "Rathoda" might have been a descendant of this dynasty who migrated to Rajputana after its downfall."

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Ldo1QtQigosC&pg=PA336&dq=rathore+rajput,+rashtrakuta&hl=en&sa=X&ei=t6gqVeiEEsO07gbPt4DwBg&ved=0CFMQ6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=rathore%20rajput%2C%20rashtrakuta&f=false
Thank you for the info, many Rathore today would probably deny this fact out of fear of being called fake Rajputs but its still quite interesting. In Bihar there is a very small clan of Rajputs called the "Kakan", most people don't know they exist as they only have a few hundred members but according to there history, they are descended from warriors who migrated from the Konkan region of South India.

[Shah-Jehan]

Interesting, I learned something new today. I guess since they never enforced direct control, the people of the NW must have forgot about them. A great South Asian Empire though. However the Pratiharas did get there revenge on the Palas as the they managed to capture Bihar and North Bengal. The Palas were also weakened by an invasion/raid by the Chola Empire which hurt them significantly. Overall I would say they are on the same level as the Praticharas of Gujarat/Rajasthan who they would not have been able to contain without the Rashtrakurthas. They definetly weren't on the same level as the Mauryas and Guptas of Bihar who managed to conquer most of South India as well.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=CeEmpfmbxKEC&pg=SL2-PA36&dq=pratiharas+pala&hl=en&sa=X&ei=M6wqVdnPJcXjaPyxgLgL&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=pratiharas%20pala&f=false

The level of influence the Pala empire exerted in South Asia and beyond (South-east Asia, East Asia) can only be matched by that of the Mauryas and maybe Cholas of the pre-medieval South Asian empires.

[Tyrone Jackson]

The level of influence the Pala empire exerted in South Asia and beyond (South-east Asia, East Asia) can only be matched by that of the Mauryas and maybe Cholas of the pre-medieval South Asian empires.
The Palas were not on the same level as the Mauryas imo, fighting the Seleucid Empire and winning plus the Mauryas had direct rule all throughout there Empire.