Students occupy Colosseum and the Pisa tower in protest

[Eldritch]

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20101125/capt.d0090350f3aa4fc5b0e8653589712b54-fc5d50248c1d4768bb9bf999baa92e38-0.jpg?x=232&y=345&q=85&sig=9U9Lq1fG.Djz4Sf9C4DMhg--

Italian students have occupied the Leaning Tower of Pisa and Rome's Colosseum to protest education cuts and university reforms being considered by parliament.

Italian news agency ANSA says some 2,000 students marched Thursday in the northern university town of Pisa, forming a human chain around its famous tower to prevent tourists from entering. Several students climbed inside the landmark as tourists snapped photos of the protest.

In Rome, students brandished banners reading "No profits off our future" as they marched around the Colosseum.

Thursday was the second day of protests against the reforms, which eliminate some areas of study and force schools that are running at deficit to close.

In Milan, police clashed briefly with students to keep them from entering the subway.

Link. (http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/University-students-hang-banner-writing-reading-Italian-No-Gelmini-Education/photo//101125/481/urn_publicid_ap_org_fc5d50248c1d4768bb9bf999baa92e 38//s:/ap/20101125/ap_on_re_eu/eu_italy_student_protests)

[Foxy]

Indeed this is what I have been disputing about with San Galgano for days. I am a student myself and I am againts this reform, becouse it only cuts founds from the universities instead of cuttuing them in the field where people really speculate, like the wages of our politicians that are nothing but scandalous.
On the contrary they are cutting money from a sector that we need becouse many universities in Italy have very bad infrastructures, old equipments and also our studies plan are often old-fashioned. We have not a seminary system but only frontal lessons. In my universities we have little rooms, equipments often don't work and laboraoties, especially for languages, are often impracticable.
And I don't want to hear the usual story that Southern Italian universities don't work, becouse the faculty of medicine of Chieti is very good and serious (people I know who entered it left lyceums with excellent scores, they were not admitted by reccomandations, mafia, ecc.ecc.) and the faculty of engeneering in l'Aquila is better and even harder than the faculty of Bologna. Indeed many people studing in L'Aquila moved later to Bologna becouse it was easier to get the degree.
But if they cut us money the problem will be for everyone, from North to South.
I think 2 things must not be touched at all: hospitals and schools. Health system and school system must remain public, everyone must have the same opportunities.

I liked the way Italian school system was unutil now. I made a lyceum where in the same classroom there were sons of nobles and sons of farmers, something that you son't see in the USA. In Italy who goes to the private school is perceived as a failed becouse public schools are far more difficult than private schools, where you just need to pay to be promoted.
Our government wants only to privatize and cut money. More than 90% of aid grants will be cut if this reform will pass.

Lucky for now it has already been rejected twice by the Parliament. I am also glad to see that my collegues in Rome and Pisa (but not only, today protests happened also in L'Aquila) are protesting.
I am less glad to hear that 30 students have been filed in Tuscany, if I am not wrong, for clashes with the police.

[Foxy]

Today students have protested in Rome, Pisa, Messina, L'Aquila, Venice, Turin, where people have occupied the sybol-places of the various cities (the Colosseum, Pisa Tower, The Dom of Messina, the Faculty of Science, Medicine and Literature of L'Aquila and Saint Marco). Other cities have protested in the last days.

http://tg24.sky.it/tg24/politica/2010/11/26/scuola_proteste_gelmini_bersani_tetti_ricercatori_ universita_studenti_rassegna_stampa.html

In the third report images of the protests.

[San Galgano]

No, you disputed with me cause you are a demagogue, and probably you have to focus also about your real politic inclination.

All this mess was caused by a left wing student movement which haven't understood a flying fuck about this reform.

We agree that our politicians earn too much, even if this is a well known and overabused symphony, but the Universities in Italy have been driven by few people who only wanted to drain funds to create useless courses, keep on favoriting nepotism, and put whoever they wanted.


Now it's time to stop it and use better the resources that are already too much but bad used.
If you and the commies who are creating problems to workers in Pisa don't want to understand this is not my problem.


Sulla questione dei baroni, il ministro afferma di introdurre con la riforma "criteri di merito nell'assegnazione delle cattedre, evitando le parentopoli e i rettori a vita". Il titolare dell'Istruzione sottolinea poi come la crisi rappresenti "un'opportunità". "Chi oggi grida "risorse-risorse-risorse" senza fare i conti con la realtà - sottolinea -, ci condanna al declino".


Ora perfavore lasciami fuori dal tuo isterismo quotidiano.

[San Galgano]

L'hai fatto il compitino di sputare sull'Italia oggi?
Ma brava...hai visto come sono veloci a ringraziarti a differenza di quando scrivi qualcosa di positivo sull'Italia?

Povero pane...

[Foxy]

No, you disputed with me cause you are a demagogue, and probably you have to focus also about your real politic inclination.

All this mess was caused by a left wing student movement which haven't understood a flying fuck about this reform.

We agree that our politicians earn too much, even if this is a well known and overabused symphony, but the Universities in Italy have been driven by few people who only wanted to drain funds to create useless courses, keep on favoriting nepotism, and put whoever they wanted.


Now it's time to stop it and use better the resources that are already too much but bad used.
If you and the commies who are creating problems to workers in Pisa don't want to understand this is not my problem.

If we speak of reduce the curses, I agree.
If we speak of diminish the years of rectorship, I agree.
If we speak of improve the controls on tests, I agree.

If we speak of cut funds, I disagree.
If we speak of cut aid grants, I disagree.

Current government is not fascist. I am not able to define it, but fascism puts the State and the Fatherland over all, not the North over the South. And during Mussolini's time the school was improved and was far harder than today. I dunno whose the fault of this worsening. Probably 20 years of DC didn't help, but the last 20 years were even worse.
But it is not all fault of Berlusconi, I agree. It's also the massive culture which is worsening, from TV to fashion. Not only in Italy anyway.

[Eldritch]

I'm not familiar with the particularities of the situation in Italy, but generally speaking I would say that no matter how tight money is, education should be one of the very last thihgs to go. And if (I say if) this really is just about profiteering, then the ones responsible are leeching off the future of their own country.

But violent and destructive hooliganism isn't a legit form of protest.

[San Galgano]

I'm not familiar with the particularities of the situation in Italy, but generally speaking I would say that no matter how tight money is, education should be one of the very last thihgs to go. And if (I say if) this really is just about profiteering, then the ones responsible are leeching off the future of their own country.

But violent and destructive hooliganism isn't a legit form of protest.


Universities in Italy have all the money they want, it's only the way they use it that is wrong and the reform wants to correct this.
All these student movements are only a direct attack to this governemnt cause it is crossing a transitory time and easily to attack.
If you see the students they all go around with Kefya and Che Guevara and the left wing politicians are all close to them.

If left wing would be at the govern they would make the same reform, but now it's time for them to attack massively the governemt in charge.

[Foxy]

I'm not familiar with the particularities of the situation in Italy, but generally speaking I would say that no matter how tight money is, education should be one of the very last thihgs to go. And if (I say if) this really is just about profiteering, then the ones responsible are leeching off the future of their own country.

But violent and destructive hooliganism isn't a legit form of protest.

I have heard in the radio the protests were not violent. They have protested in symbolic places not to damage them, but becouse they rapresent our culture. In most cases, anyway, protests were made in front of universities.
For the rest I agree with you, universities should be the last thing to be touched and from what I know universities have not all this money, especially if we speak of scientific (but not only) research.

[antonio]

Universities in Italy have all the money they want, it's only the way they use it that is wrong and the reform wants to correct this.

Agree. Upper education is one of the most favoured sectors in Western Europe for decades, with results not always clear: for example I bet many of those vandals are plain jerks who better would be substituing inmigrants on low-grade jobs, anycase that end is probably just a matter of time when they faced the useless and redundance of their grades for the society so generously subsidized their education.

[San Galgano]

Agree. Upper education is one of the most favoured sectors in Western Europe for decades, with results not always clear: for example I bet many of those vandals are plain jerks who better would be substituing inmigrants on low-grade jobs, anycase that end is probably just a matter of time when they faced the useless and redundance of their grades for the society so generously subsidized their education.

You perfectly understood the point Antonio.
Our universities have plenty of researchers put in charge with no merits, and that's what this reform wants to change too.
Several exames will be done after a period of time for evaluating the real consinstence of their scientific level, abolishing old nepotism, and why not, freeing lot of job places(avoiding waste of money for usleless reaserchers and teachers) for skilled people based over meritocracy.
All these left wing students, instigate by our left wing opposition, are the ones who spend their university times in social centers smoking weeds, hymning to Che Guevara , all of them of course university students who have not passed all his exams within the prescribed period of time.

[SwordoftheVistula]

in the same classroom there were sons of nobles and sons of farmers, something that you son't see in the USA

Umm that's pretty common here actually. We don't have actual nobles of course, but it's not uncommon to have children of farmers (in parts of the country where there are farms) or truck drivers, etc to go to the same schools as children of executives, business owners, etc.


generally speaking I would say that no matter how tight money is, education should be one of the very last thihgs to go.

The thing is though, if you have that set as a standard, then all the grifters, incompetents, and rent-seekers gravitate towards the educational field, since it's one place they know will still be paying out money.

[Foxy]

You perfectly understood the point Antonio.
Our universities have plenty of researchers put in charge with no merits, and that's what this reform wants to change too.
Several exames will be done after a period of time for evaluating the real consinstence of their scientific level, abolishing old nepotism, and why not, freeing lot of job places(avoiding waste of money for usleless reaserchers and teachers) for skilled people based over meritocracy.
All these left wing students, instigate by our left wing opposition, are the ones who spend their university times in social centers smoking weeds, hymning to Che Guevara , all of them of course university students who have not passed all his exams within the prescribed period of time.

I think you are giving a stereotyped image of students. Not all of them are left oriented and not all the left oriented ones spend time in smoking and hymining Che Guevara, exactly like I don't think that all the right oriented students are preppies who pass admission tests by reccomandation or go in private schools becouse they are first class-losers.

What surprises me in a very negative way is that decades pass, but in Italy we still are divided North vs South, Left vs Right... in short, there is always a reason to remain divided and accuse each others of the national failures.
In my opinion the current university system need a reform, but not in this terms. First, what we need is to change the structure of universities, to reduce the number of curses and of examinations of every faculty, deepening the subjects. Besides I would introduce a seminar structure instead of frontal lessons only.

About funds, I'd like to see the research improved and not limitated, same goes for grant aids, even becouse in this period a lot of families have big difficulties to substain universitarian studies of their chidren. But this is my opinion. It doesn't seem to me that my ideas are particularly right nor left oriented.

About the grant aids, do you know which is the brand of wages that at the moment have access to grant aids?
In a 3 persons families only families who have a wage of 15.000 euros per year. 15.000 euros, come on, wtf earns so little? Only starving people.
But there are a lot of families who earn just a bit more and have not access to them. This government wants even to cut a lot of grants. So who will really pay is, again, the low class.

Call me left-wing, I know only that fascism underlines strongly the importance of access to instruction also of low-class members.

[Foxy]

Umm that's pretty common here actually. We don't have actual nobles of course, but it's not uncommon to have children of farmers (in parts of the country where there are farms) or truck drivers, etc to go to the same schools as children of executives, business owners, etc.


The mine was not a blast against the USA (lol, my father is even American). I know that American universities are the best, but our government seems to want to imitate only the negative things of the American system, that maybe in the American constest are neither negative,but that in Italy are.
Italy is very different from the USA, the State has far more meddling than in the USA and we pay also a lot of more taxes.

[San Galgano]

I think you are giving a stereotyped image of students. Not all of them are left oriented and not all the left oriented ones spend time in smoking and hymining Che Guevara, exactly like I don't think that all the right oriented students are preppies who pass admission tests by reccomandation or go in private schools becouse they are first class-losers.
It's a week you are stereotyping Italy in front of the world, now if i talk of left wing students who really spend their time in social centers himning to Che Guevara and wearing Kefyah(as most of them really do), you accuse me of stereotyping?
LOL

What surprises me in a very negative way is that decades pass, but in Italy we still are divided North vs South, Left vs Right... in short, there is always a reason to remain divided and accuse each others of the national failures.
In my opinion the current university system need a reform, but not in this terms. First, what we need is to change the structure of universities, to reduce the number of curses and of examinations of every faculty, deepening the subjects. Besides I would introduce a seminar structure instead of frontal lessons only.

Basically you want the Gelmini reform and still you didn't know.


About funds, I'd like to see the research improved and not limitated, same goes for grant aids, even becouse in this period a lot of families have big difficulties to substain universitarian studies of their chidren. But this is my opinion. It doesn't seem to me that my ideas are particularly right nor left oriented.

About the grant aids, do you know which is the brand of wages that at the moment have access to grant aids?
In a 3 persons families only families who have a wage of 15.000 euros per year. 15.000 euros, come on, wtf earns so little? Only starving people.
But there are a lot of families who earn just a bit more and have not access to them. This government wants even to cut a lot of grants. So who will really pay is, again, the low class.

Call me left-wing, I know only that fascism underlines strongly the importance of access to instruction also of low-class members.


England increased 3 times the cost of Univeristy for students.
For the italian skilled universitarians there are also financial aids in case so a starving one can have all the financial help he wants.
It is not like everyone who earns few may have all the financial help in every field and the distance from 15000 euro a year to 20000 could means a lot of people more to finance, and Italy is not Disneyland, just like many other European countries aren't.
It's like that in all of Europe.
You are making an issue of this government based over nothing to me.

[Eldritch]

The thing is though, if you have that set as a standard, then all the grifters, incompetents, and rent-seekers gravitate towards the educational field, since it's one place they know will still be paying out money.

That's of course a possibility. That I don't think the possibility of undesirable corollary effects should deter us from doing the right thing (once we're in agreement of what that actually is, of course).

[Foxy]

I am very disappointed: the reform passed, although only today students protesting arose the number of 400.000, scattered in all the main cities, but in particular in Rome. I find the decision to limit protests with the use of police has not been democratic, the same result of the votation isn't democratic. 400.000 students only today, plus all the others who were not at the protests becouse living far from the main cities but who supported the protests.
Berlusconi's answer has been to conclude a real despotic act: to accuse all the protesters to be behindhand with taking exams is absolutely a personal offence. He has not the right to say that. :mad:
I hope this governemt falls as soon as possible.

[SwordoftheVistula]

I find the decision to limit protests with the use of police has not been democratic

What's 'undemocratic' about not permitting a gang of people to forcibly occupy public property because they disagree with a law passed by a democratically elected government? I'd be royally pissed if I came all the way from, say, Japan, to see a site, only to find a bunch of hooligans have blocked access to the site as a way to try and make some kind of political point. It's not good for the tourism industry either, and thereby hurts the economy further, as we have seen in Greece

[Foxy]

Protests against the school reform and Berlusconi's government turned into actions of guerrilla in the downtown of the Italian capital. Similar things didn't happened anymore since the 70s.

Rome 14/12/2010

65VLiyXoPpI

[antonio]

It's a week you are stereotyping Italy in front of the world, now if i talk of left wing students who really spend their time in social centers himning to Che Guevara and wearing Kefyah(as most of them really do), you accuse me of stereotyping?


Indeed, nowadays revolution is (more than ever, just remember 68) like a role game for rich sons trying to add some spicy to their edonist lazy lives.

And, as VoV, defends politized students of today, I think it would be worth to make a introspective recall of my own views at early twenties:

I was (and still am) an student too. And from my early university years I know perfectly well(not thinking too much on) I was a heavy subsidized young (basically from my parents but also from society and tax-payers) and I remember myself ceasing to be a rebel at the fucking moment of leaving collegue (where i was forced to be a every-fucking-day class attendant no matter if i pass or fail) and entering university freedom. And preciselly one of the things I abhored more on these days where the brand new massification (courtesy of Socialiste idiotic dreams of social justice beyond all measure) of people lacking both knowledge and vocation. So I would not to cry if some of these morons with no respect for Italian arquitecture decided University is going to be too expensive to be worth their money.:coffee:

[Foxy]

No, guy, rebel isn't the right word. Berlusconi is mafious and these guys, whatever is their political orientation, are right and should be allowed to protest freely becouse we are -in theory, only in theory- a democratic country.

Berlusconi and mafia
9wGSYebVgso

To be accurate, Berlusconi has contacts with the Sicilian Mafia and mafia exists/has businesses, also in Northern Italy.

[San Galgano]

Protests against the school reform and Berlusconi's government turned into actions of guerrilla in the downtown of the Italian capital. Similar things didn't happened anymore since the 70s.

Rome 14/12/2010

65VLiyXoPpI


Several times in the video you can appreciate hammer and sickle, that's what is never changed in Italy since the 70's differently from many other european countries;
That is, a progressive disappearing of extreme left wing movements and the replacement with a modern socialist mentality not stuck in the right-left bagarre which has no more meaning especially in this moment of crisis.
Let them destroy a city older than 2000 years with the only purpose to delegitimize a govern elected fair and square by more than the 60% of italians.
It's funny that the mess of the video is not against the Gelmini's reform about Univeristy but only cause Berlusconi got assurance in parliament and he's still in charge.
This is really scary indeed; Left wing parties unable to have a program that could really be a valid alternative to this govern, unleash their dogs all over Italy.
And they dare to accuse Berlusconi when they are trying a soft overthrow.
LOL

[San Galgano]

No, guy, rebel isn't the right word. Berlusconi is mafious and these guys, whatever is their political orientation, are right and should be allowed to protest freely becouse we are -in theory, only in theory- a democratic country.

Berlusconi and mafia
9wGSYebVgso

To be accurate, Berlusconi has contacts with the Sicilian Mafia and mafia exists/has businesses, also in Northern Italy.

You need an analyst. Seriously.

[Vasconcelos]

Wow, looks like Athens these days. :(

[Foxy]

You need an analyst. Seriously.

Aahaha, you are blind like hell guy, like every one who votes Berlusconi without being mafious. A man who has gone against the Consitution, who obtained for twice 100% of votes in Sicily during the last 2 elections, a man who ignores a protest that goes on from weeks and that makes laws ad personam when he should be in prison! I don't think that you don't see it, face the truth at least. You can be right or left oriented, but Berlusconi is nothing of both, he's just a man that would like to receive the proskynesis like Neron.
Students were not destroying a 2000 years old city. Rome saw worse moments, including the II WW and is still there, but police vans which go at students to run over them and a Prime Minister that after says that next time police won't use soft means, these things happen only in Southern America.
Berlusconi most intime collaborator, Dell'Utri, is a mafious, it has been proved various times. He has his criminal record as dirty as a public loo and you still don't see.

[San Galgano]

Guys, i don't know what is the similar key you have in your countries to delegitimate a politician, but you have to know that in Italy calling a politician mafioso is like in Germany calling a politician Nazi even if he's not.

So don't even take in consideration all these Youtube videos about Berlusconi posted by Vampire.
He maybe old and pathetic but the world mafioso in Italy became a political meaning to fight someone.

We have even a journalist who was accused by a mafioso to be one.
He was jailed and after his death he was exonerated by every accuse.
Enzo Tortora (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enzo_Tortora) was his name, and this can confirm how the account of a mafioso coul dbe taken in account.

[San Galgano]

Aahaha, you are blind like hell guy, like every one who votes Berlusconi without being mafious. A man who has gone against the Consitution, who obtained for twice 100% of votes in Sicily during the last 2 elections, a man who ignores a protest that goes on from weeks and that makes laws ad personam when he should be in prison! I don't think that you don't see it, face the truth at least. You can be right or left oriented, but Berlusconi is nothing of both, he's just a man that would like to receive the proskynesis like Neron.
Students were not destroying a 2000 years old city. Rome saw worse moments, including the II WW and is still there, but police vans which go at students to run over them and a Prime Minister that after says that next time police won't use soft means, these things happen only in Southern America.
Berlusconi most intime collaborator, Dell'Utri, is a mafious, it has been proved various times. He has his criminal record as dirty as a public loo and you still don't see.


You still need an analyst.

[Foxy]

Wow, looks like Athens these days. :(

Yes, but the protests are not for economy, rather for the school reform and for the fact that Berlusconi's government had to fall yesterday, but some members of the opposition, after having recived "bribes" from him, confirmed the vote of confidence. Berlusconi won just for 3 (bought) votes.

[Foxy]

Guys, i don't know what is the similar key you have in your countries to delegitimate a politician, but you have to know that in Italy calling a politician mafioso is like in Germany calling a politician Nazi even if he's not.

So don't even take in consideration all these Youtube videos about Berlusconi posted by Vampire.
He maybe old and pathetic but the world mafioso in Italy became a political meaning to fight someone.

We have even a journalist who was accused by a mafioso to be one.
He was jailed and after his death he was exonerated by every accuse.
Enzo Tortora (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enzo_Tortora) was his name, and this can confirm how the account of a mafioso coul dbe taken in account.

The difference between them is that the journalist went to prison becouse he was not a mafious, Berlusconi goes not in becouse he is a real mafious and has got protection. The mine is not just a "pour parler": he is really mafious.
Anyway if you think that Italian medias are leftists that likes to say mafious to everyone, here I post you an article of the Sunday Times.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article7060965.ece

THE billionaire Italian prime minister, Silvio Berlusconi, once met a leading mafia godfather to ask for protection, according to testimony gathered over several years by crime prosecutors.

Mafia informants claim the meeting took place in Milan in 1974, when Berlusconi was already a wealthy entrepreneur, at the offices of his property company. The informers say Berlusconi met Stefano Bontade, then one of the mafia’s most powerful bosses, because he feared for his family’s safety at a time when Italy was plagued by a wave of high-profile kidnappings.

Francesco Di Carlo, one of Bontade’s henchmen who is now in jail, told prosecutors that he was at the meeting. He claims Berlusconi asked for help to ensure that neither he nor his children would be abducted by other mafia clans.

According to the henchman’s testimony, Bontade gave his word that he would personally ensure Berlusconi’s safety. In return Berlusconi told the mafia godfather that he was “at his disposal, for anything”.

[Foxy]

This is about Dell'Utri

http://www.libreidee.org/en/2010/06/mafia-7-anni-a-dellutri-la-cupola-e-lascesa-di-fininvest/

[San Galgano]

This is about Dell'Utri

http://www.libreidee.org/en/2010/06/mafia-7-anni-a-dellutri-la-cupola-e-lascesa-di-fininvest/

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_aMSypcBDONg/SAUiVs13TTI/AAAAAAAAATA/ECyVtfC3mYM/s400/Ambulanza+carton.jpg

[San Galgano]

The difference between them is that the journalist went to prison becouse he was not a mafious, Berlusconi goes not in becouse he is a real mafious and has got protection. The mine is not just a "pour parler": he is really mafious.
Anyway if you think that Italian medias are leftists that likes to say mafious to everyone, here I post you an article of the Sunday Times.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article7060965.ece

THE billionaire Italian prime minister, Silvio Berlusconi, once met a leading mafia godfather to ask for protection, according to testimony gathered over several years by crime prosecutors.

Mafia informants claim the meeting took place in Milan in 1974, when Berlusconi was already a wealthy entrepreneur, at the offices of his property company. The informers say Berlusconi met Stefano Bontade, then one of the mafia’s most powerful bosses, because he feared for his family’s safety at a time when Italy was plagued by a wave of high-profile kidnappings.

Francesco Di Carlo, one of Bontade’s henchmen who is now in jail, told prosecutors that he was at the meeting. He claims Berlusconi asked for help to ensure that neither he nor his children would be abducted by other mafia clans.

According to the henchman’s testimony, Bontade gave his word that he would personally ensure Berlusconi’s safety. In return Berlusconi told the mafia godfather that he was “at his disposal, for anything”.

LOL
TheTimes is owned by Murdock if i'm not wrong, an enemy of Berlusconi and the one who created back in time many anti-italian scoops resulted lately false.

[San Galgano]

It's funny how Berlusconi is accused to be a mafioso when the minister of justice of his govern beheads Mafia's clans on a daily basis.
There have been since the first day of his govern an impressive amount of arrests between mafiouses and even introduced the "Carcere duro",(heavy jail) where arrested mafiouses can't even take an hour of free air togheter with other jail birds or speak with their families.


Berlusconi must be a masochist.
LOL

[antonio]

I must confess I'm not a neutral one about Italian politics, on the contrary, a very upraged one. But why? Because I clearly remember all Left Italy cheering on Zapatero (including a film titled "Viva Zapatero" instead of Zapata, revolutionarian Mexican leader) from the very start I guess just for ruling Homo marriage, as if we, as Spaniards, had nothing more important in our collective agenda than faggotry issues. At that time I regarded that approach to a unknown leader between childish and bizarre. Nowadays, after six years of feminazism, "guerracivilism", fanatic laicism and no-reaction against the unavoidable failure of Spanish sick productive model, I just want to say to modern Italy two things, first one: "take our fucking Zapatero and push him up your asses" and, second one: "I hope Berlusconi can manage to keep on get on your PC nervers forever...viva Berlusconi!!!"

Ps. I personally prefer Giulio Andreotti. He played long-time a really interesting Machiavelo role. Maybe he is a rotten guy, but at least, he had formerly substance and ideas to be rotten. Zapatero is plain imbecile. And Berlusconi just bunga-bunga.

[Foxy]

It's funny how Berlusconi is accused to be a mafioso when the minister of justice of his govern beheads Mafia's clans on a daily basis.
There have been since the first day of his govern an impressive amount of arrests between mafiouses and even introduced the "Carcere duro",(heavy jail) where arrested mafiouses can't even take an hour of free air togheter with other jail birds or speak with their families.


Berlusconi must be a masochist.
LOL

He is putting in prison the slums of mafia in Sicily, just to make people believe that he is doing something. He should start to clean people around him.
It's pretty useless that you make fun of me when you are not able to tear down my arguments. Very childish, congratulations. Are you really 30?
Give me proofs, names, demonstrations, not only words.

[San Galgano]

I must confess I'm not a neutral one about Italian politics, on the contrary, a very upraged one. But why? Because I clearly remember all Left Italy cheering on Zapatero (including a film titled "Viva Zapatero" instead of Zapata, revolutionarian Mexican leader) from the very start I guess just for ruling Homo marriage, as if we, as Spaniards, had nothing more important in our collective agenda than faggotry issues. At that time I regarded that approach to a unknown leader between childish and bizarre. Nowadays, after six years of feminazism, "guerracivilism", fanatic laicism and no-reaction against the unavoidable failure of Spanish sick productive model, I just want to say to modern Italy two things, first one: "take our fucking Zapatero and push him up your asses" and, second one: "I hope Berlusconi can manage to keep on get on your PC nervers forever...viva Berlusconi!!!"

Ps. I personally prefer Giulio Andreotti. He played long-time a really interesting Machiavelo role. Maybe he is a rotten guy, but at least, he had formerly substance and ideas to be rotten. Zapatero is plain imbecile. And Berlusconi just bunga-bunga.


You have to forgive them Antonio.
Our left wing is like a thirsth man inclined to glorify whoever can give him a drop of water.
Yesterday was Zapatero cause he looked like a new politician able to oppose with new ideas-be them right or wrong-the various right wing parties rised in Europe.
Then there have been Obama to the point that our opposition also used the term "yes we can" LOL.
Then there have been Merkel.
The movie "Viva Zapatero" was made by a well know commie italian comic and producer, the same commie that was laughing about the cancer of Oriana Fallaci and mocking her to death. Go figure.
Our commie parties, in the oblivion of desperation, cause they lack the ability to understand their people and issues, don't search for a political program able to fit the new mentality arosen in the italians since the 90's(pratically less politic more facts), but they try an old fashioned way to present a symbol as in the Russia of the 40's.
In this perspective, Italians don't care at all about Berlusconi, they voted his program.
Then, Ad hominem insults against our govern are and were normal by these pseudo commie intellectuals, and as in the best attitude of an old fashioned russian politic, the worst demagogy and the easiest way to delegitimize the govern that in Italy goes with calling it mafioso.

I don't like too Berlusconi, but as i said several times his entourage is doing great things but maybe they are changing Italy too fast to be understood by the average italian.
Probably Berlusconi is doing his own interests too, but to me those are collateral damages of a necessary radical change and Berlusconi is only the front man of our govern.
VampireOfVenice has a romantic view of politic, for her maybe there would be the need of extreme right wing parties to govern Italy, but we all know that this is impossible and anachronistic.

[San Galgano]

He is putting in prison the slums of mafia in Sicily, just to make people believe that he is doing something. He should start to clean people around him.
It's pretty useless that you make fun of me when you are not able to tear down my arguments. Very childish, congratulations. Are you really 30?
Give me proofs, names, demonstrations, not only words.




I'm old enough to understand when it's the case to reply and when it's the case to get a box of pop corn and see hysterical people write down day after day the same things when probably don't even know what they are talking about.
What proofs do you want?

Assange of wikileaks was jailed cause he fucked a couple of whores, but mind it, he's guilty....funny is that all of a sudden he became public enemy nr.1 while before nobody could care less if he fucked a whore.
Make your considerations and make comparisons.

Moreover it's easier to find sensationalist comments in english against Berlusconi than the other way around.
If you want i post you Libero, Il Giornale, LaNazione's articles in italian but probably those are regime's papers right?
LOL

[San Galgano]

He is putting in prison the slums of mafia in Sicily, just to make people believe that he is doing something. He should start to clean people around him.
It's pretty useless that you make fun of me when you are not able to tear down my arguments. Very childish, congratulations. Are you really 30?
Give me proofs, names, demonstrations, not only words.

Too bad it's easier to find sensationalistic articles against Berlusconi in english than it is to find contradicted comments when journalists resulted biased :coffee:

http://www.ilgiornale.it/interni/crollano_teoremi_nascita_fininvest_il_perito_ho_sb agliato/28-07-2007/articolo-id=195781-page=0-comments=1

http://www.ilgiornale.it/interni/giornata_star_killer_spatuzza_la_boccassini_e_pron ta_colpire_cav/politica-giustizia-berlusconi-mangano-superkiller-mafia-boccassini-spatuzza-delutri/04-12-2009/articolo-id=403987-page=0-comments=1
http://www.libero-news.it/news/535642/Dell_Utri_al_Tg____Mangano_mafioso__Non_aveva_mica _un_distintivo_.html


Milano - In attesa del varo del piano straordinario in dieci punti contro la criminalità organizzata annunciato dal ministro del’Interno, Roberto Maroni, ecco le principali azioni adottate dal Governo Berlusconi contro le mafie (contenute essenzialmente nelle leggi 125 del 2008 e 94 del 2009) contro le mafie ed i risultati del contrasto.

Le misure principali Rese più incisiva l’aggressione ai patrimoni mafiosi, distinguendo il destino del mafioso da quello dei suoi beni. Una volta confiscati, i beni non potranno più essere restituiti agli eredi.

- Possibile applicare le misure di prevenzione patrimoniale indipendentemente dall’attualità della pericolosità del soggetto al momento della proposta.

- Per contrastare l’infiltrazione mafiosa negli appalti sarà possibile controllare i cantieri dei lavori pubblici attraverso il potere d’accesso dei prefetti.

- Procedure più celeri per destinare i beni confiscati alla collettività.

- Più duro il regime del 41 bis che potrà essere chiesto anche dal ministro dell’Interno.

- Introdotta nuova fattispecie di reato per chi agevola la comunicazione all’esterno dei soggetti sottoposti al 41 bis.

- Esclusione dagli appalti pubblici degli imprenditori che non denunciano l’estorsione subita.

- Gli amministratori responsabili dello scioglimento dei consigli comunali o provinciali per infiltrazione mafiosa non potranno essere temporaneamente candidati.

- Creato il Fondo unico giustizia nel quale confluiscono le somme sequestrate alle mafia. RISULTATI CONTRASTO (dati Viminale):

Tutti i numeri 3.630 arresti - 282 latitanti presi - 10.089 beni sequestrati per un valore di 5,6 miliardi - 377 operazioni di polizia giudiziaria - 13 consigli comunali sciolti

[Foxy]

Moreover it's easier to find sensationalist comments in english against Berlusconi than the other way around.
If you want i post you Libero, Il Giornale, LaNazione's articles in italian but probably those are regime's papers right?
LOL

LOL, are you joking with me? Il giornale, Libero and LaNazione ARE party journal, it is like if I answer you with an article form the Il Manifesto. :lightbul:
Sensational!
Uh, surely I have a romantic view of politics, becouse I don't support disonest people who use corruption and exaction day after day. Do you support also Lodo Alfano?
Do you know that in L'Aquila, my capital city, he did nothing? He gave some houses to people - at least, becouse in the coldest city of Italy 17.000 people were homeless - with the money of the International Red Cross, taking all the merit and stop. All the plans that are in project are financed by foreign countries or privates, Berlusconi is doing nothing but using this earthquake for propaganda. People are protesting and nobody on TV says nothing (the prefer to send "Big Brother" or "Veline") .
I am too stoical for the Italian politics, I agree, but surely if Italy was full of people like me we will stay better, becouse I don't turn a blind eye on every little mafioso politician of my country, this goes for the ones right oriented and for the ones left oriented.

[Foxy]

^^^

Just a random article about L'Aquila from Corriere della Sera, a neutral journal.

http://roma.corriere.it/roma/notizie/cronaca/10_luglio_7/manifestazione-aquila-roma-1703342556569.shtml

It is from July 2010 but situation from that has not changed. Recostrucion will happen, if will happen, in non less than 10 years, while in a first moment Berlusconi, to take votes, said 5 years.

[MagnaLaurentia]

San Galgano and Vampire of Venice never have the same opinion on Italian politics. But the two claim to "fascist" (if I understand)...

[Wyn]

San Galgano and Vampire of Venice never have the same opinion on Italian politics.

Silvio Berlusconi is the sort of gentleman that divides peoples' opinions anyway. ;)

[San Galgano]

LOL, are you joking with me? Il giornale, Libero and LaNazione ARE party journal, it is like if I answer you with an article form the Il Manifesto. :lightbul:
Sensational!
LOL
Libero and IlGiornale are biased like TheTimes and the rest of italian newspapers who are not pro-govern and are pro-opposition.
As simple as that. Moreover one can be biased as he wants but the judge who admitted he made an error over Dell'Utri is a source not a biased point of view by ilGiornale.
Whatever float your boat.

Uh, surely I have a romantic view of politics, becouse I don't support disonest people who use corruption and exaction day after day. Do you support also Lodo Alfano?
Do you know that in L'Aquila, my capital city, he did nothing? He gave some houses to people - at least, becouse in the coldest city of Italy 17.000 people were homeless - with the money of the International Red Cross, taking all the merit and stop. All the plans that are in project are financed by foreign countries or privates, Berlusconi is doing nothing but using this earthquake for propaganda. People are protesting and nobody on TV says nothing (the prefer to send "Big Brother" or "Veline") .

Go vote Casini or Di Pietro then, you will see that they will give abruzzese people their home in few days.:coffee:
I still have to see someone hitten by a disaster who hasn't nothing to say about the govern. It's mathematical.



I am too stoical for the Italian politics, I agree, but surely if Italy was full of people like me we will stay better, becouse I don't turn a blind eye on every little mafioso politician of my country, this goes for the ones right oriented and for the ones left oriented.

No, you are histerical not stoical, don't celebrate yourself too much:D.
You use the term mafioso as a generalization of politicians and in the same way foreigner use it against italians, that is, many times without sense.

Wake up, this is politic, not a movie where all live long and happy.
I bet if you had lived at the time of Augusto you would have called Marcantonio a mafioso too.

[San Galgano]

San Galgano and Vampire of Venice never have the same opinion on Italian politics. But the two claim to "fascist" (if I understand)...

I'm a rational\fascist Magnalaurentia, and as many europeans and italians i have not anymore a romantic idea of politic despite VoV.
Politic for me today is not anymore divided between the good and the bad politicians, it is divided between the ones that make their interests togheter with interest of the country, and the ones that only make their interests.

Berlusconi to me fits the first category, that in today's politic is the best i could wish.:thumb001:

[Foxy]

Go vote Casini or Di Pietro then, you will see that they will give abruzzese people their home in few days.:coffee:
I still have to see someone hitten by a disaster who hasn't nothing to say about the govern. It's mathematical.

I will vote Di Pietro indeed, at least he was a real policeman and a magistrate and a real fascist, though the orientation of his current party is more left-oriented. And he had a part in operation "Mani Pulite". What have you to say against a man who cleaned the top of the political scene during the 90s? That's what we need.



No, you are histerical not stoical, don't celebrate yourself too much:D.
You use the term mafioso as a generalization of politicians and in the same way foreigner use it against italians, that is, many times without sense.



No, I don't. I use mafioso when a person is, according to me, mafioso. Dell'Utri is mafioso or involved with the mafia, there are proofs. Berlusconi used him as go-between with Cosa Nostra... if those are not mafiosi who is?
Some days ago I heard a professor (I don't remember his name, sorry) who said that a thing to blame is that in Italy it has never been written a History of Mafia that included also the area of Northern Italy, becouse there is mafia also there (I am just referring his words). Of course, mafia has an other face in Northern Italy, is not violent and can be associated with a strong corruption and circles that controls public contracts, politics, etc.etc.
I am not speaking of Tuscany nor of Abruzzo, Umbria, Marche, but of Lombardy.
An exemple of what kind of people are politicians are? Just look at Renzo Bossi (Bossi's son). He failed for 3 TIMES the high school leaving examinations and now he is in politics only becouse of his daddy.
And his face is not such intelligent...

http://www.byteliberi.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/14218_strunzwd1.jpg

Do you want to be rapresented by this idiot? I don't, but we pay him 12.000 euros per months, while thousand of people with a master and excellent marks don't find a job.

[Foxy]

To foreigners: don't confuse Berlusconi with the fascist wing. Berlusconi and Lega Nord are not fascist at all.
Fascist parties are:
-Forza Nuova (leader, Alessandra Mussolini, now linked with Berlusconi)
-Fiamma Tricolore (that during the last election didn't entered in Parliament)
-Movimento Fascista e Libertà (which is nazist and didn't entered in Parliament).

Then there is Fini whose party is Alleanza Nazionale and although he presents himself as a conservatism and liberal, for me he is the most fascist of all at the moment (though he condamned the Fascism and Nazism in the past formally).
Anyway true fascist parties are not in Italian Parliament, exactly like nazist parties are not in the German Parliament.
Berlusconi is centre.
And there there is Italia dei Valori of Di Pietro who is inspired to the socialism, but also fascism is from socialism. So..mmm... but I like the points of this party.

[antonio]

And there there is Italia dei Valori of Di Pietro who is inspired to the socialism, but also fascism is from socialism. So..mmm... but I like the points of this party.

I hate to say I seriously doubt it. Time of socialists (and public figures in general) leaping into fascism are long gone...unfortunatelly.

Pd. Other thing would be the underlying (below ideology) policies. I lack information about the kind of people Di Pietro is, but being a relevant judge, I guess he feels very comfortable with current democratic laws to try to violate or dramatically change them.

[Falkata]

Universities in Italy have all the money they want, it's only the way they use it that is wrong and the reform wants to correct this.
All these student movements are only a direct attack to this governemnt cause it is crossing a transitory time and easily to attack.
If you see the students they all go around with Kefya and Che Guevara and the left wing politicians are all close to them.

If left wing would be at the govern they would make the same reform, but now it's time for them to attack massively the governemt in charge.

LoL this shit is so familiar...

[San Galgano]

I will vote Di Pietro indeed, at least he was a real policeman and a magistrate and a real fascist, though the orientation of his current party is more left-oriented. And he had a part in operation "Mani Pulite". What have you to say against a man who cleaned the top of the political scene during the 90s? That's what we need.

:rotfl:

Di Pietro a fascist?????
Di Pietro is an illiterate who bases his program over nothing, if he couldn't rely over "mani pulite" his political program would be handcuffs for everybody only.
You can see too how his entourage rely over him since one of his deputies voted for Berlusconi few days ago allowing him to be in charge again.

He's not a politician nor a fascist, he's only a retarded biased sheriff who persecutes the center-right wing parties and avoided many times to investigate over Prodi or D'alema, and enemy of the purest right movements such as Forza Nuova too.
It's well known his hate against fascism.
So don't say silly things, please.





No, I don't. I use mafioso when a person is, according to me, mafioso. Dell'Utri is mafioso or involved with the mafia, there are proofs. Berlusconi used him as go-between with Cosa Nostra... if those are not mafiosi who is?
Some days ago I heard a professor (I don't remember his name, sorry) who said that a thing to blame is that in Italy it has never been written a History of Mafia that included also the area of Northern Italy, becouse there is mafia also there (I am just referring his words). Of course, mafia has an other face in Northern Italy, is not violent and can be associated with a strong corruption and circles that controls public contracts, politics, etc.etc.
I am not speaking of Tuscany nor of Abruzzo, Umbria, Marche, but of Lombardy.
The mafia you are talking about is not mafia, is "malaffare" a well know thing in politic and a world wide phenomena.
You can't call a person mafioso only cause they have been caught in some malaffare, otherwise almost all the politicians in the world would be mafiosi.
North-center Italy has nothing to do with real mafia, and it would be the moment you quitted to spread this idiocies in a forum where people for the most know Italy only because of some Hollywood movies and with superficial knowledge.


An exemple of what kind of people are politicians are? Just look at Renzo Bossi (Bossi's son). He failed for 3 TIMES the high school leaving examinations and now he is in politics only becouse of his daddy.
And his face is not such intelligent...

http://www.byteliberi.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/14218_strunzwd1.jpg

Do you want to be rapresented by this idiot? I don't, but we pay him 12.000 euros per months, while thousand of people with a master and excellent marks don't find a job.


Better him who at least would spend some words against the muslims in Italy than an ex fascist like Fini who earns 20000 euro a month to say that whoever discriminates muslims, gipsies and ni@@ers is a bastard and a an idiot and that we need them all.

[San Galgano]

To foreigners: don't confuse Berlusconi with the fascist wing. Berlusconi and Lega Nord are not fascist at all.
Fascist parties are:
-Forza Nuova (leader, Alessandra Mussolini, now linked with Berlusconi)
-Fiamma Tricolore (that during the last election didn't entered in Parliament)
-Movimento Fascista e Libertà (which is nazist and didn't entered in Parliament).
Yes of course, if only one of those parties would be at the govern in Italy the entire Bruxelles and all those cunts politicians there, would make a trade embargo erasing our name from the EU.
Are you joking or what?
Those are extra parliamentary parties they would never be voted beyond the 0.1%


Then there is Fini whose party is Alleanza Nazionale and although he presents himself as a conservatism and liberal, for me he is the most fascist of all at the moment (though he condamned the Fascism and Nazism in the past formally).
Anyway true fascist parties are not in Italian Parliament, exactly like nazist parties are not in the German Parliament.
Berlusconi is centre.
And there there is Italia dei Valori of Di Pietro who is inspired to the socialism, but also fascism is from socialism. So..mmm... but I like the points of this party.



Di Pietro, is not a fascist deal with it.
The only thing he should be inspired of is an ABC ancillary for kids.
One day with him at the govern and you would regret Lega Nord and Berlusconi suddenly.

Adesso ti scrivo in Italiano perche' a differenza tua mi dispiace se questi coglioni pensano che siamo tutti mafiosi, te fai come cazzo ti pare invece.
Di Pietro ha cofondato l'Italia dei valori con Leoluca Orlando che e' stato inquisito per appalti concessi all'Iri, nel quale Prodi aveva forti interessi economici.
Ti risulta che Di Pietro abbia mai indagato Prodi?
No naturalmente.

Sei troppo giovane per capire i meccanismi della politica, e naturalmente come tutti i giovincelli pensi che Forza Nuova(improbabile che diventi partito di governo)sia il toccasana dell'Italia.
Ai miei tempi c'era l'MSI di Fini, tu guarda a distanza di anni il delfino di Almirante che fine ha fatto;
A leccare il culo agli ebrei e a rinnegare il fascismo.
Ti e' chiaro il discorso?

[Cato]

Rabble, send in the vigiles.