View Full Version : Gedrosian Admixture as in Pakistanis
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GBrcUN8BSyM/WaC1QFUuhgI/AAAAAAAACWM/R7oV-97IPR4GvXKzccJHvNteefHDjJEygCLcBGAs/s1600/Gedrosia.gif
approximately above 60% Gedrosian in Pakistanis
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-JEdzmt3M9wY/WZtjo6P0h3I/AAAAAAAACSM/lneZt1ZYx5kAOS_OWQVWnmk-4HPwYijJgCLcBGAs/s1600/CricketPakistan8m.jpeghttps://4.bp.blogspot.com/-LnTI7oANYTQ/WZtxHxRpm2I/AAAAAAAACSo/rZ8Gc1i3KvkZGJiItqF25ltYrc3dnY3eACLcBGAs/s1600/CricketPakistan8f.jpeg
approximately around 30% in Indians
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JpmPzkX4UDQ/WZwjgTkAZmI/AAAAAAAACS4/Imk38a2OR642u9NHp90MRWVK3c-45y-1gCLcBGAs/s1600/CricketIndia8m.jpeghttps://1.bp.blogspot.com/-M8F6ITdKY6g/WZwr4ZL8uzI/AAAAAAAACTI/Z-zkHYfc-ZEg6yhhDwo-9QCfrXZ65ibvgCLcBGAs/s1600/CricketIndia8f.jpeg
approximately around 30% in Bengalis
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-0fcVf4cStAc/WZteARkxZDI/AAAAAAAACR8/wVEAywBNp9waDn9YgjkgWrZnNggyJ2VTwCLcBGAs/s1600/CricketBangladesh8m.jpeg
Iranians 30%
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3it8yncN70w/U5N3YnBui7I/AAAAAAAAA2c/LWXLEk0I_sg/s1600/iran16.jpeg
Armenians 16%
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-0IsLGYL0mmM/Vhrjy8TEwzI/AAAAAAAAA-Y/ztmmDPSu_hE/s1600/armenia16.jpg
Georgians 16%
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-vy86qfjSPg0/WfeWAV1SaaI/AAAAAAAAC_U/XR1RPJtYk1EeJXzkrPr8O7x8aW70iXOxgCLcBGAs/s1600/SoccerGeorgia32.jpg
Turkish 13,4%
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-HSKn67QBdLQ/T3JPMYr0ELI/AAAAAAAAAnk/T46N4cGtpnk/s1600/turkey32.jpeghttps://2.bp.blogspot.com/-gWVO8dNlZI8/WSVonF4k7cI/AAAAAAAACAg/KBwYV_IweAwdftFivejD6PUTX4o4oifRACLcB/s1600/VolleyballTurkey8f.jpeg
Irish 11%
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-dN5cL5FK2Ro/WiRwrQSKbfI/AAAAAAAADRg/cSQ3-8xzG9g1znGoOv9PPPDMShfIqIbnACLcBGAs/s1600/Ireland.jpg
British 10%
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZnQ9nE0ytmE/Whdl5HWqjKI/AAAAAAAADM0/sR28T938_ws6vL0CV4Eutmsl_o8ronk3gCLcBGAs/s1600/England.jpg
Hadouken
02-01-2018, 12:55 AM
you can not take pakistani pheno/phenos and equate it with the gedrosia component because pakistanis score other things too . as you see they are 60% gedrosia but 40% other stuff such as high ASI , some east/northeast european , some minor neolithic etc.
it is actually hard to make such comparisons for any component
lameduck
02-01-2018, 12:58 AM
Classic Gedrosia look , Pak Baloch actor
http://www.aajpk.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/nadia-khan-show-29-january-2016.jpg
http://pakistani.pk/uploads/reviews/photos/original/58/d1/17/ayub-khoso-photo-05-94-1441493104.jpg
Hadouken
02-01-2018, 12:59 AM
Classic Gedrosia look , Pak Baloch actor
http://www.aajpk.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/nadia-khan-show-29-january-2016.jpg
http://pakistani.pk/uploads/reviews/photos/original/58/d1/17/ayub-khoso-photo-05-94-1441493104.jpg
yes I think those would be close
what about this baloch model
https://www.google.de/search?q=Hasnain+Lehri&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiZjYbQzoPZAhUC6qQKHWNyCHoQ_AUICigB&biw=1120&bih=597#imgrc=cDbQZS20uiU2wM:
lameduck
02-01-2018, 01:00 AM
you can not take pakistani pheno/phenos and equate it with the gedrosia component because pakistanis score other things too . as you see they are 60% gedrosia but 40% other stuff such as high ASI , some east/northeast european , some minor neolithic etc.
it is actually hard to make such comparisons for any component
also cricket team morph isnt completely representative of Gedrosia rich phenotype since some players are from Low castes/migrant communities etc
Hadouken
02-01-2018, 01:00 AM
also cricket team morph isnt completely representative of Gedrosia rich phenotype since some players are from Low castes/migrant communities etc
check my last post with the model guy
lameduck
02-01-2018, 01:00 AM
yes I think those would be close
what about this baloch model
https://www.google.de/search?q=Hasnain+Lehri&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiZjYbQzoPZAhUC6qQKHWNyCHoQ_AUICigB&biw=1120&bih=597#imgrc=cDbQZS20uiU2wM:
yeah he too
Hadouken
02-01-2018, 01:03 AM
yeah he too
another one
baloch man
https://c.stocksy.com/a/cbA100/z0/279100.jpg
gedrosia component is very similar to the caucasus component and often also combined as one component. these people we posted are probably as close as you can get for the gedrosia component .however as I said it is not possible to know for sure because people are mixed now .
Classic Gedrosia look , Pak Baloch actor
http://www.aajpk.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/nadia-khan-show-29-january-2016.jpg
http://pakistani.pk/uploads/reviews/photos/original/58/d1/17/ayub-khoso-photo-05-94-1441493104.jpg
Gedrosian is a brown skin pheno in origin
Gedrosian is very high from Pakistan to Bangladesh comprising India
Mingle
02-01-2018, 01:04 AM
you can not take pakistani pheno/phenos and equate it with the gedrosia component because pakistanis score other things too . as you see they are 60% gedrosia but 40% other stuff such as high ASI , some east/northeast european , some minor neolithic etc.
it is actually hard to make such comparisons for any component
Also, Gedrosia is 60% only in Baloch people. They don't even make up 5% of Pakistan's population.
lameduck
02-01-2018, 01:05 AM
another one
baloch man
https://c.stocksy.com/a/cbA100/z0/279100.jpg
gedrosia component is very similar to the caucasus component and often also combined as one component. these people we posted are probably as close as you can get for the gedrosia component .however as I said it is not possible to know for sure because people are mixed now .
this Sindhi as well after Baloch/bruhuis they score highest Gedrosia
https://media.gqindia.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/mahar31.jpg
Thambi
02-01-2018, 01:06 AM
Pakistanis OVERALL aren't 60% baloch. They are around 40-45% if we include the majority of the population such as punjabis, pathans, and sindhis. Only balochis and brahuis from western pakistan are around 60% baloch.
Also, Gedrosia is 60% only in Baloch people. They don't even make up 5% of Pakistan's population.
Read what I said, Gedrosia is high from. Pakistan to Bangladesh ranging 60% in Baloch to 30% in other people from paki-india-bangladesh
lameduck
02-01-2018, 01:08 AM
Also, Gedrosia is 60% only in Baloch people. They don't even make up 5% of Pakistan's population.
its very high among Sindhis as well and Bruhuis too(they score highest) on combine they make something like 15% of population. Overall native Pakistani populations are rich in Gedrosia(minus dalits obviously).Punjabi arains also score very high Gedrosia and they are a large tribe.
Mingle
02-01-2018, 01:08 AM
Read what I said, Gedrosia is high from. Pakistan to Bangladesh ranging 60% in Baloch to 30% in other people from paki-india-bangladesh
I know it's high in Pakistanis, but it's significantly less than 60%. Saying that Pakis are 60% Gedrosian is misleading.
lameduck
02-01-2018, 01:12 AM
I know it's high in Pakistanis, but it's significantly less than 60%. Saying that Pakis are 60% Gedrosian is misleading.
also morph used is of cricket team and funny thing is that there is no Baloch/Sindhi/Bruhui player anyways its still a decent effort.
There is an interesting mystery.. Has it been solved?
The relative high amount of Gedrosian in British Isles people.
It follows a broken path.. I mean it s reasonable that Gedrosian entered Europe from south east.. But then it s disconnected because Balkans and Central europe have less Gedrosian than the British isles.
Why is that?.. Historic mating of British with Indians and Pakistanis?
Marmara
02-01-2018, 01:34 AM
Gedrosian is a brown skin pheno in origin
Gedrosian is very high from Pakistan to Bangladesh comprising India
How are you sure about that? Real source of brown skin is ASI in Indian subcontinent, Gedrosian might not have anything to do with it. Pakistanis have more than Indians but they aren't darker. Baloch people have it the most and they're much lighter than average.
Gangrel
02-01-2018, 01:34 AM
Kurd average?
Hadouken
02-01-2018, 01:36 AM
Kurd average?
Around 22 23
Gangrel
02-01-2018, 01:37 AM
Around 22 23
which calc again B
Hadouken
02-01-2018, 01:38 AM
The numbers gica gave are not all acurrate btw
I will post some results to for proof later
Hadouken
02-01-2018, 01:39 AM
which calc again B
Dodo cat k12 b i gues
lameduck
02-01-2018, 01:45 AM
How are you sure about that? Real source of brown skin is ASI in Indian subcontinent, Gedrosian might not have anything to do with it. Pakistanis have more than Indians but they aren't darker. Baloch people have it the most and they're much lighter than average.
You are right Gedrosia is the major caucasoid component of South Asia and populations that have them higher are actually lighter by South Asian standards.
Gangrel
02-01-2018, 01:54 AM
Dodo cat k12 b i gues
is 28% on dodocatk12b
Hadouken
02-01-2018, 01:56 AM
is 28% on dodocatk12b
28 is too high . I wil run kurdissh kits later when i am on computer . I have 23
Purohit ji
02-01-2018, 02:53 AM
Indians are around average 38%. And it's almost equal in all castes.
Kouros
02-01-2018, 03:23 AM
28 is too high . I wil run kurdissh kits later when i am on computer . I have 23
Where did Gedrosia come from? Central hunter gatherers? It looks like it's non-existent in Baltic and Poles/Ukrainians, peaks in Dinaric alps in the Balkans, and British isles in Europe.
Hadouken
02-01-2018, 03:25 AM
Where did Gedrosia come from? Central hunter gatherers? It looks like it's non-existent in Baltic and Poles/Ukrainians, peaks in Dinaric alps in the Balkans, and British isles in Europe.
we wuz schyrhianz
Gangrel
02-01-2018, 03:26 AM
28 is too high . I wil run kurdissh kits later when i am on computer . I have 23
You are part turk tho
Mingle
02-01-2018, 03:27 AM
Where did Gedrosia come from? Central hunter gatherers? It looks like it's non-existent in Baltic and Poles/Ukrainians, peaks in Dinaric alps in the Balkans, and British isles in Europe.
Most likely Balochistan if I'm not mistaken.
https://baluchsarmachar.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/balochistan-map.jpg
Hadouken
02-01-2018, 03:29 AM
You are part turk tho
if i am partilly turkish then only 1/3 .i am mostly kurdish either way. and turks score 13 14 or so percent themselves. I will look for kurdish results later and also run kits of other west asians
Kouros
02-01-2018, 03:30 AM
we wuz schyrhianz
?
Most likely Balochistan if I'm not mistaken.
https://baluchsarmachar.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/balochistan-map.jpg
Is it related to a specific ancient/pre-historic people? I find it weird how the only place you don't find it is in Slavs.
Hadouken
02-01-2018, 09:02 AM
if i am partilly turkish then only 1/3 .i am mostly kurdish either way. and turks score 13 14 or so percent themselves. I will look for kurdish results later and also run kits of other west asians
ok as promised I run several people through the calc :
Georgians :
20.49
18.49
20.61
18.80
Kurds from Tunceli/Dersim - Turkey
23.29 (my score)
22.71
24.58
Armenians :
19.27
20.28
Feyli Kurd from Iran :
27.26
Laz from Rize - Turkey :
16.51
There is an interesting mystery.. Has it been solved?
The relative high amount of Gedrosian in British Isles people.
It follows a broken path.. I mean it s reasonable that Gedrosian entered Europe from south east.. But then it s disconnected because Balkans and Central europe have less Gedrosian than the British isles.
Why is that?.. Historic mating of British with Indians and Pakistanis?
I think map is somewhat incorrect for south-central Europe (it shows it lower than reality). Both me and Stears score around 6% Gedrosian admix. I think it is usual for this part of Europe.
princeton90
10-01-2021, 10:01 AM
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GBrcUN8BSyM/WaC1QFUuhgI/AAAAAAAACWM/R7oV-97IPR4GvXKzccJHvNteefHDjJEygCLcBGAs/s1600/Gedrosia.gif
1) Only Baloch people are around 60% Gedrosian and Baloch are only 2% of Pakistani population.
2) No, you cannot call proto-Gedrosians look like Baloch people since it would be really inaccurate. There would be a HUGE genetic distance between an average Baloch and a person who is hypothetically 100% Gedrosian by DNA. Because of that huge genetic distance, they would probably look very different from each other.
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GBrcUN8BSyM/WaC1QFUuhgI/AAAAAAAACWM/R7oV-97IPR4GvXKzccJHvNteefHDjJEygCLcBGAs/s1600/Gedrosia.gif
Everyone knows it makes no sense that Northern Europeans or for that matter any Europeans to score that much Gedrosian or Baloch component according to Dodecad K12b Gedmatch calculator above in the map
If you want to get more accurate admixture percentages you should use GedrosiaDNA project calculators not Dodecad or Eurogenes. The only bad thing about GedrosiaDNA calculators is that the oracles don’t have enough populations so you get modelled according to the few populations that are in the oracles.
Otherwise GedrosiaDNA calculators at GEDmatch have more accurate admixture percentages generally than Dodecad, Eurogenes or others. Here’s the proof:
As we can see in this chart the GedrosiaDNA Gedrosia or Baloch percentages make much more sense to everyone than the map of Dodecad K12 Gedrosia percentages above because Europeans score almost 0. Same with East Asians, Africans and Siberians. Also Indians except NW Indians score much less than Iranics such as Kurds which of course akso makes better sense than the other GEDmatch calculators
Chart is according to Gedrosia K12 population average spreadsheet on GEDmatch
https://i.imgur.com/4OIwLdk.jpg
Grace O'Malley
10-01-2021, 01:11 PM
This is an old component from a calculator that is nearly 10 years old. It's not based on ancient components so pretty much outdated now.
This is an old component from a calculator that is nearly 10 years old. It's not based on ancient components so pretty much outdated now.
Yeah so is the GedrosiaDNA K12 but that’s not a valid excuse since the Gedrosia K12 Gedrosia percentages makes much more sense than the Dodecad K12
Grace O'Malley
10-01-2021, 01:30 PM
Yeah so is the GedrosiaDNA K12 but that’s not a valid excuse since the Gedrosia K12 Gedrosia percentages makes much more sense than the Dodecad K12
What exactly is it? It isn't ANE but some mixed component. Why use something like that when you have ancient samples that are much more representative? It doesn't make sense to me that people would use an old component like Gedrosia.
What exactly is it? It isn't ANE but some mixed component. Why use something like that when you have ancient samples that are much more representative? It doesn't make sense to me that people would use an old component like Gedrosia.
It’s not based on any ancient component. It’s just based on Baloch genetic drift, but so in fact are other components in GEDmatch calculators. They are also based on genetic drift of modern populations. For example Caucasus is usually based and genetic drift of Georgians.
My point on the previous page was to show that people shouldn’t judge a calculator by whether the modelling or oracles has their own ethnic group but should judge A calculator on whether the admixture percentages make sense
So on the previous page I just proved that admixture percentages of GedrosiaDNA K12 make much more sense than Dodecad K12 even though people like the modelling or oracles of Dodecad K12 better. Simple answer is GedrosiaDNA calculators spreadsheets only have few populations
Accuracy of calculator admixture percentages and oracles are two separate subjects. It’s entirely possible to have a calculator that gives good oracle modeling but the admixture percentages are off for everyone
.
Grace O'Malley
10-01-2021, 02:00 PM
It’s not based on any ancient component. It’s just based on Baloch genetic drift, but so in fact are other components in GEDmatch calculators. They are also based on genetic drift of modern populations. For example Caucasus is usually based and genetic drift of Georgians.
My point on the previous page was to show that people shouldn’t judge a calculator by whether the modelling or oracles has their own ethnic group but should judge A calculator on whether the admixture percentages make sense
So on the previous page I just proved that admixture percentages of GedrosiaDNA K12 make much more sense than Dodecad K12 even though people like the modelling or oracles of Dodecad K12 better. Simple answer is GedrosiaDNA calculators spreadsheets only have few populations
Accuracy of calculator admixture percentages and oracles are two separate subjects. It’s entirely possible to have a calculator that gives good oracle modeling but the admixture percentages are off for everyone
.
Thank you for your explanation. It's great to have some knowledgeable people posting on here. :thumb001:
Komintasavalta
10-01-2021, 03:07 PM
What exactly is it? It isn't ANE but some mixed component. Why use something like that when you have ancient samples that are much more representative? It doesn't make sense to me that people would use an old component like Gedrosia.
Maybe there's some trick that I'm missing, but when I've tried to make a projected ADMIXTURE run where modern samples are projected on ancient references, I've gotten results like in the second and fourth graphs below, where most populations get at least 5-10% of every component. The same thing happens when I try to make SNP-level Vahaduo models where modern target populations are modeled using ancient source populations.
In supervised ADMIXTURE, you can select which samples are forced to get 100% of each component, but other samples are still allowed to affect the SNP loadings of the same components. So for example in the first graph below, the EHG_NHG component ended up accounting for Siberian ancestry, because the run included 20 samples from each population, and there were more Siberian samples than EHG_NHG samples, so the loadings of the EHG_NHG component were probably impacted more by the Siberian samples than the EHG_NHG samples.
In projected ADMIXTURE, first the SNP loadings of each component are defined using a set of reference samples, and then the components are used to model projected samples. But projecting ancient samples on modern references seems to give more reasonable results than projecting modern samples on ancient references. I haven't seen any academic paper with an ADMIXTURE run where modern samples are projected on ancient references, but some papers like Saag et al. 2019 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6544527/) have done the reverse.
https://i.ibb.co/6sJndCV/admixfail.jpghttps://i.ibb.co/DRv1Ybv/admixfail2.jpghttps://i.ibb.co/6sJSm34/admixfail3.jpg
Maybe there's some trick that I'm missing, but when I've tried to make a projected ADMIXTURE run where modern samples are projected on ancient references, I've gotten results like in the second and fourth graphs below, where most populations get at least 5-10% of every component. The same thing happens when I try to make SNP-level Vahaduo models where modern target populations are modeled using ancient source populations.
In supervised ADMIXTURE, you can select which samples are forced to get 100% of each component, but other samples are still allowed to affect the SNP loadings of the same components. So for example in the first graph below, the EHG_NHG component ended up accounting for Siberian ancestry, because the run included 20 samples from each population, and there were more Siberian samples than EHG_NHG samples, so the loadings of the EHG_NHG component were probably impacted more by the Siberian samples than the EHG_NHG samples.
In projected ADMIXTURE, first the SNP loadings of each component are defined using a set of reference samples, and then the components are used to model projected samples. But projecting ancient samples on modern references seems to give more reasonable results than projecting modern samples on ancient references. I haven't seen any academic paper with an ADMIXTURE run where modern samples are projected on ancient references, but some papers like Saag et al. 2019 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6544527/) have done the reverse.
https://i.ibb.co/6sJndCV/admixfail.jpghttps://i.ibb.co/DRv1Ybv/admixfail2.jpghttps://i.ibb.co/6sJSm34/admixfail3.jpg
Great work again Komi ! I like your thinking and skills. You just exposed how the GEDmatch calculators are flawed since most are unsupervised and a few are supervised. I’m seeing how Iranians score only 1% E. Asian whereas Palestinians and Yemenis score more than them. Not to mention the 1% E. Asian for Iranians is a joke !
None are a perfect solution but i like the supervised and projected a little better.
The trick you are asking about for others not to affect SNP loadings is in supervised to only have carefully selected reference populations and only a couple of non-reference samples in each run. Of course it’s very time consuming since you’re getting results for only a couple of non-references at a time so you have to do dozens of runs but that’s the only way for non-references to not affect SNP loadings.
Unfortunately GEDmatch calculators were designed the opposite way with most of the time non-references even exceeding references!! You can only imagine how much the nun references have affected the SNP loadings. That’s why you’re seeing the odd results of Gedrosia in Dodecad and other calculators
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