Which parts, if any, of Northwest Europe could these Portuguese pass in? [Archive] - The Apricity Forum: A European Cultural Community

Sikeliot

10-08-2017, 09:45 PM

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-mCv32hxufTQ/UbED9Il2ViI/AAAAAAAAA2I/r8n2gqsXvTI/s1600/Mafalda+Teixeira,+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8dDc1HhAwrA/UhtBU0LrNSI/AAAAAAAAEZo/tDe6zm7b7Sk/s1600/Bárbara+Norton+de+Matos2,+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-XhFsFJS_sIA/Uuli987yulI/AAAAAAAALmg/mTGJ4XgjwjM/s1600/Anabela+Teixeira,+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-NCPKZWljmq8/UulffpM3dBI/AAAAAAAALmE/m8GySPn9fUY/s1600/S%25C3%25B3nia+Balac%25C3%25B3%252C+Portuguese_peo ple.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-F3h3yoszqeM/UukOTkAfSaI/AAAAAAAALkI/8tvRSgy-kH8/s1600/Anabela+Moreira%252C+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-AzGVI3DUdVU/UjgufyKOMFI/AAAAAAAAFN0/exOPpzdRjgo/s1600/Rita+Martins,+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/--P6s3sEuk9g/UojIY9bzYiI/AAAAAAAAISE/BSSSnO6RoeU/s1600/Inês+Costa,+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-UzVL0DEt098/UbEGrpXXT_I/AAAAAAAAA3w/6QJSk9YF-VA/s1600/Diana+Costa,+Portuguese_peopple.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bwk-9JHHSX4/Uuk6pyv3u7I/AAAAAAAALkk/0kqYIYz8o5U/s1600/Paula+Lobo+Antunes,+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-zUAkEbFCjQE/UkSXNCtovuI/AAAAAAAAF18/FaGjJxqU5JM/s1600/Mariana+Pacheco,+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-keBBww3ac24/UousJ0zdz6I/AAAAAAAAIbM/UvjDW92uUcM/s1600/Sofia+Arruda,+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-K-7f7g3T1fg/UnGKDVLFiwI/AAAAAAAAHuQ/zd4GvKGJB9Q/s1600/Andreia+Dinis,+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-FdNIAWUBwf0/Ujgv4VwhG-I/AAAAAAAAFOk/Or-HjyAHDfw/s1600/Sara+Barros+Leit%25C3%25A3o%252C+Portuguese_people .jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xoE3Jtj3NhY/Ugz9MCAHoHI/AAAAAAAAEM0/EiExxnPK6ww/s1600/Inês+Castel+Branco2,+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-oV3W3Q67DmU/UumBoHk50dI/AAAAAAAALow/JBgf6aTfFso/s1600/Luciana+Abreu,+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-72kK7LjiPK8/UbEIYWCmUgI/AAAAAAAAA4k/lCnWR9JJt0Y/s1600/Sandra+Santos2,+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-0ZaBlxJhWf0/UbYyjiiWKBI/AAAAAAAABCI/7srEO7SAXzo/s1600/Maria+João+Bastos2,+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-cqOh4Y6BunA/UbEELuYD9ZI/AAAAAAAAA2Q/sM2XNCmFEKQ/s1600/Sara+Prata2,+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-NkwVuWDHFDY/UbZJrPUhNqI/AAAAAAAABEA/7IEeTbTO-3s/s1600/Sandra+Faleiro2,+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3m-8Z5y3S6w/UbMp70o-tkI/AAAAAAAAA6I/-rXp7ZiNM_A/s1600/Maria+João+Lu%C3%ADs,+Portuguese_people.jpg

Sikeliot

10-08-2017, 09:45 PM

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-69pyFYo6CRw/UfblE1NavDI/AAAAAAAADfw/v2kVlQY8el0/s1600/Joana+Barradas%252C+Portuguese+people.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-eyQROI2e7Fc/Uiyt2EbOetI/AAAAAAAAEv8/7JddE7mlCpw/s1600/Sofia+Nic,+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-slP90w2ZoBo/UsxltzTvhbI/AAAAAAAAKGs/ukDkrMbyKdM/s1600/Cristina+Milh%25C3%25A3o%252C+Portuguese_people.jp g
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-cC-dIubN9ck/Ujb755gf5WI/AAAAAAAAFJU/haVWtglAjr4/s1600/B%25C3%25A1rbara+Louren%25C3%25A7o2%252C+Portugues e_people.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-8TdJp5VWQko/UgDjVA6zolI/AAAAAAAAD3s/JfmIdHseaog/s1600/Teresa+Macedo%252C+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ECFxMWQpLOI/Ujb768xIp9I/AAAAAAAAFJg/l596HA5SGbg/s1600/Joana+Ribeiro2%252C+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-KLUZ2NuScFw/Utrfxl6_8WI/AAAAAAAAK-8/uq9OCJVmkio/s1600/Marisa+Cruz2%252C+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-VDdOydhkNhA/Un1gmaNGhzI/AAAAAAAAIDk/pfJFHz_Bs6c/s1600/Leonor+Bastos%252C+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GxN4cHrvNPc/UbMq7hRe7tI/AAAAAAAAA6k/VNZWAz0L7Qw/s1600/Luisa+Cruz2%252C+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-cdDupenxaxU/Ug4F3yo8eSI/AAAAAAAAEOI/hC1a5yQTup0/s1600/Sofia+Carvalho,+Portuguese_people+(2).jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-LlTXGmujIj4/UuluU0-Yr7I/AAAAAAAALnY/5MsUZEpcgbA/s1600/Ana+Rocha,+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Qj2VG8H9rbc/Uulr4_UKChI/AAAAAAAALnI/eTHFqRIWq7c/s1600/Joana+Câncio,+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6gB17s8W6H4/UbcWnR06OpI/AAAAAAAABFg/Pj2nt_QYyo0/s1600/Helena+Costa2,+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-2FSGYcl9irM/Ud3KtCJmBvI/AAAAAAAABYo/4NtzXI2TYaU/s1600/Carla+Maciel%252C+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-G9MkFD-goAM/UbjbE5-PldI/AAAAAAAABG8/LCSE0jR5KyA/s1600/Vera+Alves,+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-fAc8l-yaR_w/Uhivhg4mdMI/AAAAAAAAEWI/BdQGW-toJJo/s1600/Raquel+Henriques2%252C+Portuguese+people.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QNmAmmXQSyI/UhiwAQ0lopI/AAAAAAAAEWY/QmkBC7BmjuA/s1600/Gracinda+Nave%252C+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-3NCv5MCzyiI/UhivcbOAAmI/AAAAAAAAEWA/t18mmEjjp48/s1600/Ana+Moreira%252C+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-TZwMNES7hWg/UbEFpnzu5oI/AAAAAAAAA24/P-tmWb2M_P4/s1600/Oceana+Bas%C3%ADlio,+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-HxkUrUxN2r4/UbNbFcnEscI/AAAAAAAAA9E/J48y5lZlo08/s1600/Noémia+Costa,+Portuguese_people.jpg

Sikeliot

10-08-2017, 09:46 PM

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pppNVEuke5k/UfYbGLK7o7I/AAAAAAAADZE/3_gKR4E35wE/s1600/Cristina+Cavalinhos,+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-65QjJPyeiRw/UcYIh90eFoI/AAAAAAAABTI/ETyXmETl9mo/s1600/L%C3%ADgia+Roque,+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-RgLD8nAJ9KQ/UbXW-RUuvQI/AAAAAAAABAk/9vZrcIZr_Z0/s1600/Helena+Isabel,+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6bW_De8XYE0/UbXWpB0s2wI/AAAAAAAABAg/j8h-zvtlD7Q/s1600/Simone+de+Oliveira%252C+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-nME7kZ8dQnU/UgtovaSobGI/AAAAAAAAELI/ADtOFH3ak68/s1600/Maria+Dulce,+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-NbStf_6vsUs/UgtpDWS3mdI/AAAAAAAAELQ/lDafy1pgSyw/s1600/Lia+Gama,+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-CeM1SVBCfIg/UkmY_GPjPBI/AAAAAAAAGBs/227g7o9Kxo8/s1600/Ant%25C3%25B3nia+Terrinha2%252C+Portuguese+people. jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-E1Dv766KTQ8/UgtpP5Ei3bI/AAAAAAAAELY/gKnk0oIMzuI/s1600/Carmen+Santos,+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SWEK1SuZcJg/UkmY3-9siSI/AAAAAAAAGBg/MDKX3QKlosM/s1600/Delfina+Cruz,+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-WU0TuU9f7d8/Ug4RqTDHLbI/AAAAAAAAEPI/SPVk3PP8rmk/s1600/Daniela+Marques,+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-lS9D7qmXuZ4/UsVhfHdvnSI/AAAAAAAAJ3w/Xjm4tqwDcd4/s1600/Sara+Mestre,+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-C7trJh7Dh1g/UhDB0aKfkqI/AAAAAAAAEQA/BL1iGg7Q5II/s1600/Tiago+Gois+Ferreira,+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qZ_tPAsnsxU/Ub8nYhzJoMI/AAAAAAAABSc/oPYtJLxVZ0c/s1600/Nuno+Teixeira%252C+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ybBy2Qzd2LQ/Uul2GE4atPI/AAAAAAAALoU/TSdood9246s/s1600/Lic%C3%ADnia+Macedo,+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-uiYqBsAhv5Q/Uuj2MyszxXI/AAAAAAAALjM/7hvQrYdZos8/s1600/Sara+Silveira,+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-qzAvunQ45SI/UgEH8OZcIAI/AAAAAAAAD44/m70U4DmhaLo/s1600/Joana+Ribeiro+Santos,+Bust+-+Portuguese+people.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-lffVRAck4x8/UgEKkvVA0QI/AAAAAAAAD5Q/iXfOL-rhOEU/s1600/Sofia+N.,+Bust+-+Portuguese+people.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-RdKyVH_krC8/Ugpw2frSjfI/AAAAAAAAEJ4/-z4KuA3hsRU/s1600/Alexandre+Ferreira,+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-rcND55p6rFU/UcgSJrKVbRI/AAAAAAAABVc/7M2_9035qNQ/s1600/Paulo+Pires2,+Portuguese_people.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Z5gX8MwKSOk/Ujb7566iwyI/AAAAAAAAFJ0/bADtlWerIPM/s1600/Diogo+Morgado2%252C+Portuguese_people.jpg

Cristiano viejo

10-08-2017, 09:47 PM

Czechoslovachia is my modest opinion.

Ilma

10-08-2017, 09:48 PM

Ireland maybe. Somewhat atypical for many I guess though. Lot of them look very Celtic to me for some reason.

Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas

10-08-2017, 09:48 PM

Czechoslovachia is my modest opinion.

Czech Republic isn't North Western European...

Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas

10-08-2017, 09:51 PM

I voted all to some extent. Depends on the individual. Best fits for me is Northern France and the United Kingdom though.

Sikeliot

10-08-2017, 09:56 PM

I voted all to some extent. Depends on the individual. Best fits for me is Northern France and the United Kingdom though.

I think they fit better in southern England than in Ireland. Even with the Germanic input into the area, this is the most "southern" shifted part of the UK along with Wales. Irish look too northern to generally be Iberian.

Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas

10-08-2017, 09:59 PM

I think they fit better in southern England than in Ireland. Even with the Germanic input into the area, this is the most "southern" shifted part of the UK along with Wales. Irish look too northern to generally be Iberian.

Yes, I didn't mentioned Ireland that's not their best fit along with Scandinavian nations.

Ülev

10-08-2017, 10:07 PM

Where?

there, at least - best:
https://s1.postimg.org/4n2gjp317z/vote.png

Odin

10-08-2017, 10:21 PM

France.

Token

10-08-2017, 10:24 PM

All over the Celtic sea.

Token

10-08-2017, 10:28 PM

I think they fit better in southern England than in Ireland. Even with the Germanic input into the area, this is the most "southern" shifted part of the UK along with Wales. Irish look too northern to generally be Iberian.

Irish people looks Western European in general and most of them can pass in Iberia. Actually, the Atlantid spectrum (the name given for this type is not for nothing) runs from Iberia up to the British Isles.

kleenex

10-08-2017, 10:34 PM

Two or three may fit in Ireland or British Isles but most in France and South.

Grace O'Malley

10-08-2017, 10:55 PM

Nice looking people. I think they fit better in France though. Although some can pass. Irish have more rounded faces in general than Spanish or Portuguese people and a higher amount of rufosity. I really think any connections are overstated.

Here's Irish people from Kerry which is one of the Southern counties in Ireland.

http://www.kerryladiesfootball.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/IMG_5880-750x462_c.jpg
http://camogie.ie/images/Development%202017/12.4.17/Kerry%20Minor20Camogie%202017%20(4)%%20(2).jpg
http://munster.gaa.ie/wp-content/themes/munster/uploads//MunsterU16FootballFinal_KerrySouth2013.jpg
http://paidiose.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Lucan-LGF.jpg
http://www.kerryladiesfootball.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/K1c-750x462_c.jpg
https://www.sportsfile.com/winshare/w540/Library/SF566/1123708.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLM3dqtW0AEx4xs.jpg
https://img.rasset.ie/000b1c79-1600.jpg
http://img.rasset.ie/000d0575-800.jpg
https://ssl.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000lAu1Yl9xEIE/s/750/22-U14-Football-Kerry5302.jpg

People are free to disagree if they wish but this has been my observations.

Cristiano viejo

10-08-2017, 11:05 PM

Czech Republic isn't North Western European...

Then Romania

Grace O'Malley

10-08-2017, 11:07 PM

Then Romania

They are nice looking people. Are they actors?

Cristiano viejo

10-08-2017, 11:08 PM

They are nice looking people. Are they actors?

Am I Portuguese to know it?

Oneeye

10-08-2017, 11:09 PM

Zimbabwe

Grace O'Malley

10-08-2017, 11:13 PM

Am I Portuguese to know it?

LOL! I think they are as I've seen them posted before.

Principe Azzurro

10-08-2017, 11:34 PM

Honest opinion, some could pass in France I guess and some in Britain, but overall I would say (80%) of them distinctly look Southern Euro, very good looking bunch.

Grace O'Malley

10-09-2017, 12:13 AM

More pictures from the first page of my google search. I've added some individuals.

http://img2.thejournal.ie/inline/3594062/original?width=220&version=3594062
http://sportsnewsireland.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Kerry-GAA-James-O-Donoghue1-610x350.png
http://files.hoganstand.com/Common/NewGallery/inpho_00952218.jpg
http://www.wearedublin.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/img_9277.jpg
http://img2.thejournal.ie/inline/1291419/original?width=630&version=1291419
https://m0.sportsjoe.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/17180210/castleknock-winners.jpeg
http://www.independent.ie/migration_catalog/article25525712.ece/ALTERNATES/h342/fd8949be-376a-4f53-bc05-6e0a7d0ab802.jpg
http://munster.gaa.ie/wp-content/themes/munster/uploads//JohnMcGrath.jpg
http://www.independent.ie/incoming/article34906946.ece/ALTERNATES/h342/tipp.jpg
https://img.rasset.ie/000e7272-614.jpg?ratio=0.62
http://munster.gaa.ie/wp-content/themes/munster/uploads//MunsterSHL_Kerry_Clare.jpg

There might be individuals that fit but generally you can tell the difference. I don't think there is a "Western" look that some people advocate on this forum and elsewhere. I think Irish are hardcore "Northwestern". What do others think?

I think people are too hung up on "Celtic" connections which doesn't have any genetic basis. I hope I haven't shut down any discussion because it is interesting.

Sikeliot

10-09-2017, 12:17 AM

I think people are too hung up on "Celtic" connections which doesn't have any genetic basis. I hope I haven't shut down any discussion because it is interesting.

There is some basis due to the fact that the closest South Euros to Brits/Irish are Iberians (well, southern French if you count them but if not, Iberians). Not Italians of any sort, nor Sicilians, nor Greeks, nor Balkan Slavs. It is Iberians.

Grace O'Malley

10-09-2017, 12:25 AM

There is some basis due to the fact that the closest South Euros to Brits/Irish are Iberians (well, southern French if you count them but if not, Iberians). Not Italians of any sort, nor Sicilians, nor Greeks, nor Balkan Slavs. It is Iberians.

What about Belgians, South Dutch etc? Generally those populations are closer. I've seen Southwest English, Cornish etc at the bottom of populations for Iberian people on Gedmatch and usually Irish don't even appear. It's all a bit random with what populations appear. Some Iberians get places like Serbia. I still think people are too caught up on this old "Atlantic Facade" and Celtic myth to a certain degree. If not they talk about a "Western" connection which isn't there either.

With Irish Gedmatch results they are much closer to people like Dutch and Scandinavians but everyone is hung on these "Celtic" connections. :)

Sikeliot

10-09-2017, 01:16 AM

Dick

10-09-2017, 01:19 AM

LOL! I think they are as I've seen them posted before.

Grace my dear, Cristiano didn't post the pictures. Sikeliot did.

Decius

10-09-2017, 01:21 AM

They pass in Ireland very well imo

Grace O'Malley

10-09-2017, 01:45 AM

Iberians are closer to Dutch and Scandinavians than Italians, Greeks, Albanians are too though. There is no confusion here to me. This is more that Iberians have a northwest shift, not that Irish have a southern one. Does this make sense?

What is clear to me about the Irish is they are close to all Brits (whether from Inverness or Essex), then to Dutch, Germans, and eventually Scandinavians.

They are closer to Scandinavians than Germans but that makes sense geographically. Most populations are closer to their neighbours except there is more a divide between north and south than west and east. I think most people will acknowledge this to be the case.

I'm sure you would see that with all your Gedmatch results. :)

Grace O'Malley

10-09-2017, 01:46 AM

Grace my dear, Cristiano didn't post the pictures. Sikeliot did.

Yes my love. I do realise that. :)

Grace O'Malley

10-09-2017, 01:53 AM

They are closer to Scandinavians than Germans (except poss North Germans) but that makes sense geographically. Most populations are closer to their neighbours except there is more a divide between north and south than west and east. I think most people will acknowledge this to be the case.

I'm sure you would see that with all your Gedmatch results. :)

My K13 and K15 (and I'm fairly typical of Irish results).

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 52.04
2 Baltic 25.27
3 West_Med 9.81
4 West_Asian 7.25
5 East_Med 1.77
6 Red_Sea 1.50
7 Amerindian 1.38

Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 North_Dutch @ 3.343981
2 Irish @ 3.397813
3 West_Scottish @ 4.026271
4 Norwegian @ 4.042346
5 Orcadian @ 4.244986
6 Danish @ 4.289660
7 North_German @ 6.192955
8 Southeast_English @ 6.842666
9 Southwest_English @ 6.901150
10 Swedish @ 7.318733
11 South_Dutch @ 11.629003
12 West_German @ 12.655422
13 North_Swedish @ 14.482445
14 Austrian @ 17.549162
15 East_German @ 17.693420
16 French @ 18.062477
17 Hungarian @ 22.544872
18 Southwest_Finnish @ 23.876503
19 Spanish_Cataluna @ 26.292759
20 Southwest_French @ 27.316259

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish +50% Norwegian @ 2.522953

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish +25% Norwegian +25% Norwegian @ 2.522953

Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++
1 Irish + Norwegian + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.519424
2 Irish + Irish + Norwegian + Norwegian @ 2.522953
3 Irish + Irish + North_Dutch + Norwegian @ 2.540311
4 Irish + North_Dutch + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.548502
5 Norwegian + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.564251
6 North_Dutch + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.622005
7 North_German + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.648387
8 Irish + Irish + Irish + Norwegian @ 2.664680
9 Irish + North_German + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.680890
10 Danish + Irish + Irish + Norwegian @ 2.683445
11 Danish + Irish + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.695799
12 Irish + Irish + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.721051
13 North_Dutch + North_Dutch + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.729033
14 Danish + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.747781
15 Irish + Irish + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 2.753577
16 Irish + Irish + North_German + Norwegian @ 2.764748
17 Irish + North_Dutch + North_Dutch + Norwegian @ 2.766720
18 North_Dutch + Norwegian + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.767802
19 Irish + Swedish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.767981
20 Irish + Irish + Irish + Swedish @ 2.775764

K15

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 37.04
2 Atlantic 29.88
3 Baltic 11.89
4 Eastern_Euro 8.75
5 West_Asian 5.16
6 West_Med 4.95
7 Amerindian 1.15
8 Red_Sea 1.10

Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
15 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Irish @ 3.425280
2 West_Scottish @ 3.557808
3 North_Dutch @ 4.181393
4 Danish @ 4.453959
5 Orcadian @ 5.505360
6 Southeast_English @ 5.676529
7 North_German @ 5.882824
8 Southwest_English @ 7.466283
9 Norwegian @ 8.417722
10 West_Norwegian @ 8.735489
11 Swedish @ 9.296607
12 South_Dutch @ 11.184519
13 West_German @ 12.499153
14 North_Swedish @ 12.662151
15 East_German @ 16.492691
16 French @ 16.524723
17 Southwest_Finnish @ 17.903034
18 Austrian @ 21.142027
19 Finnish @ 21.647963
20 Hungarian @ 21.914810

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish +50% North_Dutch @ 3.203073

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish +25% North_Dutch +25% West_Scottish @ 3.143203

Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++
1 Irish + North_German + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 3.125094
2 North_German + West_Scottish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 3.128713
3 Irish + Irish + North_Dutch + West_Scottish @ 3.143203
4 Irish + Irish + North_German + Orcadian @ 3.144938
5 Irish + Irish + Irish + North_Dutch @ 3.150105
6 Irish + North_German + Orcadian + West_Scottish @ 3.159487
7 Irish + Irish + North_German + West_Scottish @ 3.182833
8 North_Dutch + North_German + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 3.183386
9 Irish + North_Dutch + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 3.193700
10 Irish + North_Dutch + North_German + West_Scottish @ 3.195021
11 North_German + Orcadian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 3.202463
12 Irish + Irish + North_Dutch + North_Dutch @ 3.203073
13 Danish + Irish + Irish + North_Dutch @ 3.235043
14 Danish + Irish + Irish + Irish @ 3.235556
15 Irish + North_Dutch + North_Dutch + West_Scottish @ 3.238354
16 Danish + Irish + Irish + West_Scottish @ 3.248949
17 Irish + Irish + North_Dutch + North_German @ 3.252259
18 Irish + Irish + Irish + Swedish @ 3.254036
19 Irish + North_Dutch + North_German + Orcadian @ 3.259177
20 Irish + Irish + Irish + North_German @ 3.268316

Sebastianus Rex

10-09-2017, 02:01 AM

Czechoslovachia is my modest opinion.

You mean Galicia, wich is de facto the beginning of northwestern Europe with all that shitty rainy weather...God I hate the north.

Ireland maybe. Somewhat atypical for many I guess though. Lot of them look very Celtic to me for some reason.

There's a good reason for it, because Celtic is an important part of Iberian ancestry...and that does not mean that all Celts looked alike or had red hair and freckles, that is pure anthrotardism.

Irish people looks Western European in general and most of them can pass in Iberia. Actually, the Atlantid spectrum (the name given for this type is not for nothing) runs from Iberia up to the British Isles.

All British are well distinguished from Iberians when we analize groups of populations, no matter if they are from the north or south. No matter what people might say, Iberians despite having some specificities are generally closer to other southern Europeans - Italians, part of the French and Greeks.

What about Belgians, South Dutch etc? Generally those populations are closer. I've seen Southwest English, Cornish etc at the bottom of populations for Iberian people on Gedmatch and usually Irish don't even appear. It's all a bit random with what populations appear. Some Iberians get places like Serbia. I still think people are too caught up on this old "Atlantic Facade" and Celtic myth to a certain degree. If not they talk about a "Western" connection which isn't there either.

With Irish Gedmatch results they are much closer to people like Dutch and Scandinavians but everyone is hung on these "Celtic" connections. :)

Celtic connections ?! Why the heck the Irish think they have the monopoly about Celticity ?! Because they don't have anything else to hold on to ? Celticity is more about culture than race or genetics, all western Europe was deeply celticized in Antiquity. There was Italo-Celts, Celtiberians, Gauls, Germano-Celts and insular Celts (wich due to cultural and geographic isolation allowed more Celtic cultural aspects to survive).

Token

10-09-2017, 02:07 AM

All British are well distinguished from Iberians when we analize groups of populations, no matter if they are from the north or south. No matter what you say, Iberians despite having some specifcities are generally closer to other southern Europeans - Italians, part of the French and Greeks.
I don't deny that but there are clear similarities shared by the regions of Europe bordering the Atlantic Ocean. Actually, the Atlantic Europe connection is a real Anthropological and Geographical concept studied by many respectable scholars.

Grace O'Malley

10-09-2017, 02:18 AM

You mean Galicia, wich is de facto the beginning of northwestern Europe with all that shitty rainy weather...God I hate the north.

There's a good reason for it, because Celtic is an important part of Iberian ancestry...and that does not mean that all Celts looked alike or had red hair and freckles, that is pure anthrotardism.

All British are well distinguished from Iberians when we analize groups of populations, no matter if they are from the north or south. No matter what people might say, Iberians despite having some specificities are generally closer to other southern Europeans - Italians, part of the French and Greeks.

Celtic connections ?! Why the heck the Irish think they have the monopoly about Celticity ?! Because they don't have anything else to hold on to ? Celticity is more about culture than race or genetics, all western Europe was deeply celticized in Antiquity. There was Italo-Celts, Celtiberians, Gauls, Germano-Celts and insular Celts (wich due to cultural and geographic isolation allowed more Celtic cultural aspects to survive).

No one said that Irish have a monopoly on Celticity. That is just your spin on it. I think Celticiity is an exaggerated connection. That's what I said. Otherwise I agree with a lot of what you have said.

Sebastianus Rex

10-09-2017, 02:19 AM

I don't deny that but there are clear similarities shared by the regions of Europe bordering the Atlantic Ocean. Actually, the Atlantic Europe connection is a real Anthropological and Geographical concept studied by many respectable scholars.

Yes, some similarities I agree, but that it is true just up to a certain degree. As well there are similarities all along the Mediterranean basin that are in my opinion even more significant. That's why I wrote that Iberians have some specificities, they are both Western and Southern.

Sebastianus Rex

10-09-2017, 02:24 AM

No one said that Irish have a monopoly on Celticity. That is just your spin on it. I think Celticiity is an exaggerated connection. That's what I said. Otherwise I agree with a lot of what you have said.

We have to look at Celticity like the Romanization process. A culture was spread from one place to a considerable amount of already inhabited regions, in both processes there was of course a minor or moderate genetic impact wich was much less relevant than the cultural impact.

JMack

10-09-2017, 02:30 AM

We have to look at Celticity like the Romanization process. A culture was spread from one place to a considerable amount of already inhabited regions, in both processes there was of course a minor or moderate genetic impact wich was much less relevant than the cultural impact.

Which were the phenotypes of Proto-Celts in your opinion?

Token

10-09-2017, 02:34 AM

Yes, some similarities I agree, but that it is true just up to a certain degree. As well there are similarities all along the Mediterranean basin that are in my opinion even more significant. That's why I wrote that Iberians have some specificities, they are both Western and Southern.

Completely agree. Iberia and the British Isles were probably very similar socially and culturally after the Late Bronze age but later both received important foreign influences throughout history that gradually distanced them from one another. In the case of the British Isles, the Germanic tribes influenced drastically the typology and culture of the native Celtic inhabitants and in Iberia, the Romans extinguished their languages, that were very similar to the ones spoken Ireland at the time, and culture. By the way, in some parts of Iberia, specially in the Northwest, some pre-Roman cultural elements managed to survive and today, their 'celticity' can be compared to the proud Celts of the isles.

Here's a map made by the National Genographic showing areas where the Celtic culture survived. In my opinion, the Iberian area can be extended further to the South and to the East covering Cantabria and Northern Portugal.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/5e/7f/f4/5e7ff46e442d5daf38da5fb05e905b5f--celtic-nations-six-nations.jpg

Grace O'Malley

10-09-2017, 02:37 AM

I don't deny that but there are clear similarities shared by the regions of Europe bordering the Atlantic Ocean. Actually, the Atlantic Europe connection is a real Anthropological and Geographical concept studied by many respectable scholars.

There isn't any Atlantic connection. The Atlantic connection is vastly overemphasised and exaggerated as anyone can see with both looks and genetics. If you look at a Spanish person's Gedmatch results they don't have any particular connection running along the Atlantic ocean. They are much closer to populations geographically closer and by land. No one can post anything to show any evidence of this supposed Atlantic connection.

There is a big Irish genetic study called the Irish DNA Atlas and most info is going to be released on this in about a week and a half but results already show they are just more similar to their neighbours geographically.

Here is an admixture table from this study. The populations are rather different.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/313535603/figure/fig2/AS:462539025850371@1487289305936/Figure-2-Ancestry-profiles-of-the-Irish-Travellers-and-neighbouring-European.jpg

JMack

10-09-2017, 02:41 AM

Grace O'Malley

10-09-2017, 02:41 AM

Completely agree. Iberia and the British Isles were probably very similar socially and culturally after the Late Bronze age but later both received important foreign influences throughout history that gradually distanced them from one another. In the case of the British Isles, the Germanic tribes influenced drastically the typology and culture of the native Celtic inhabitants and in Iberia, the Romans extinguished their languages, that were very similar to the ones spoken Ireland at the time, and culture. By the way, in some parts of Iberia, specially in the Northwest, some pre-Roman cultural elements managed to survive and today, their 'celticity' can be compared to the proud Celts of the isles.

Here's a map made by the National Genographic showing areas where the Celtic culture survived. In my opinion, the Iberian area can be extended further to the South and to the East covering Cantabria and Northern Portugal.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/5e/7f/f4/5e7ff46e442d5daf38da5fb05e905b5f--celtic-nations-six-nations.jpg

It has nothing to do with Germanic influences. Those populations were always different due to different amounts of Bell Beaker influences not incursions from Germanics. The Irish are more distant to the Spanish than the English even though the English have had more Germanic incursions.

Token

10-09-2017, 02:44 AM

There isn't any Atlantic connection. The Atlantic connection is vastly overemphasised and exaggerated as anyone can see with both looks and genetics. If you look at a Spanish person's Gedmatch results they don't have any particular connection running along the Atlantic ocean. They are much closer to populations geographically closer and by land. No one can post anything to show any evidence of this supposed Atlantic connection.

There is a big Irish genetic study called the Irish DNA Atlas and most info is going to be released on this in about a week and a half but results already show they are just more similar to their neighbours geographically.
Here is an admixture table from this study. The populations are rather different.

The Atlantic Europe concept is real. The Genetic similarities between the two are limited but still visible. The R1b-L21 haplogroup, for example, show a clear gradient running from Iberia to Western Norway and throughout the portion of Europe bordering the Atlantic sea.
Anthropologically, the Atlantid spectrum runs from Iberia, with the Atlanto-Mediterranid type, up to the British Isles, with a Nord-Atlantid predominance.
Anyway, the strongest connection is cultural, and there are a plenty of good books that you can read about this subject. One recommendation is the 'Atlantic Europe in the First Millennium BC: Crossing the Divide' by Tom Moore and Armada, Oxford University.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-L21.gif

Grace O'Malley

10-09-2017, 02:44 AM

You have an Iberian population yourself in your top 20 gedmatch though.

The point people is making here is that Iberians are both 'Atlantic' and Mediterranean, it's very coherent with genetic and anthropological results.

That's not a very close connection though. I even have Austrians closer. If any population in Europe post their results they will also show various populations that are relatively distant. That's my whole point. Both populations have countries that are significantly closer. There is no special connection. I even have Finnish closer.

Grace O'Malley

10-09-2017, 02:47 AM

The Atlantic Europe concept is real. The Genetic similarities between the two are limited but still visible. The R1b-L21 haplogroup, for example, show a clear gradient running from Iberia to Western Norway and throughout the portion of Europe bordering the Atlantic sea.
Anthropologically, the Atlantid spectrum runs from Iberia, with the Atlanto-Mediterranid type, up to the British Isles, with a Nord-Atlantid predominance.
Anyway, the strongest connection is cultural, and there are a plenty of good books that you can read about this subject. One recommendation is the 'Atlantic Europe in the First Millennium BC: Crossing the Divide' by Tom Moore and Armada, Oxford University.

L21 is not very numerous in Iberia. They are overwhelmingly DF27. Also the Atlantid stuff is old and both Irish and Spanish are not exactly Atlantid. It's very exaggerated.

Percivalle

10-09-2017, 02:48 AM

Which were the phenotypes of Proto-Celts in your opinion?

Proto-Celts descend from various groups of Urnfield culture.

Token

10-09-2017, 02:48 AM

It has nothing to do with Germanic influences. Those populations were always different due to different amounts of Bell Beaker influences not incursions from Germanics. The Irish are more distant to the Spanish than the English even though the English have had more Germanic incursions.

I'm not talking only about genetics but also culture and language. Anyway, the Germanic tribes influenced the British Isles in every aspect, just like the Romans in Iberia.

Grace O'Malley

10-09-2017, 02:51 AM

Proto-Celts descend from various groups of Urnfield culture.

Yes I agree. It was more a Central European movement. There is a lot of revision around this subject in the last few years.

Grace O'Malley

10-09-2017, 02:52 AM

I'm not talking only about genetics but also culture and language. Anyway, the Germanic tribes influenced the British Isles in every aspect, just like the Romans in Iberia.

They have genomes from places like Ireland before there was any Germanic incursions though. The Irish haven't really changed much since the Bronze Age.

Token

10-09-2017, 02:54 AM

L21 is not very numerous in Iberia. They are overwhelmingly DF27. Also the Atlantid stuff is old and both Irish and Spanish are not exactly Atlantid. It's very exaggerated.

I didn't said that it's numerous but that there's a clear Atlantic connection. The distribution of this lineage certainly proves the genetic connection of the Atlantic Europe. Autossomally, we still need to do more research about the Celts genetic make-up in general so we still can't talk with certainty, but what we can say for sure is that they played the principal role in the formation of both Iberian and British-Irish people.

Token

10-09-2017, 02:58 AM

They have genomes from places like Ireland before there was any Germanic incursions though. The Irish haven't really changed much since the Bronze Age.

I never said the contrary and the same is true for Iberia.

Sebastianus Rex

10-09-2017, 03:04 AM

Which were the phenotypes of Proto-Celts in your opinion?

Irrelevant, Proto-Celts spread their culture and others spread that culture and so on, it was a more cultural transmission process.

There isn't any Atlantic connection. The Atlantic connection is vastly overemphasised and exaggerated as anyone can see with both looks and genetics. If you look at a Spanish person's Gedmatch results they don't have any particular connection running along the Atlantic ocean. They are much closer to populations geographically closer and by land. No one can post anything to show any evidence of this supposed Atlantic connection.

There is a big Irish genetic study called the Irish DNA Atlas and most info is going to be released on this in about a week and a half but results already show they are just more similar to their neighbours geographically.

Here is an admixture table from this study. The populations are rather different.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/313535603/figure/fig2/AS:462539025850371@1487289305936/Figure-2-Ancestry-profiles-of-the-Irish-Travellers-and-neighbouring-European.jpg

Actually Iberians score higher percentage of what we might claissify as Atlantic components than anyone else (west-med and north-atlantic or w.med and atlantic, depending on the methodology), it's Irish and British who diverge by scoring a much higher Baltic component wich is of course not originary of the Atlantic region).

Grace O'Malley

10-09-2017, 03:13 AM

I didn't said that it's numerous but that there's a clear Atlantic connection. The distribution of this lineage certainly proves the genetic connection of the Atlantic Europe. Autossomally, we still need to do more research about the Celts genetic make-up in general so we still can't talk with certainty, but what we can say for sure is that they played the principal role in the formation of both Iberian and British-Irish people.

It's not an Atlantic connection though. The Bell Beakers came from Central Europe with a heavy does of Steppe. They completely overturned the populations in the British Isles. Iberian genetics is a lot more complicated.

Here's some really great genetic studies using ancient genomes if you are interested and they are recent (within the last couple of years).

This is the earlier one on the Rathlin genomes. Prof Dan Bradley said that there was a population turnover in Ireland with Bell Beakers.

http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368.full

The Beaker Phenomenon and the Genomic Transformation of Northwest Europe

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/05/09/135962.full.pdf

This one is specifically on Portugal

Here is a quote from this study.

Author summary
Recent ancient DNA work has demonstrated the significant genetic impact of mass migrations
from the Steppe into Central and Northern Europe during the transition from the
Neolithic to the Bronze Age. In Iberia, archaeological change at the level of material culture
and funerary rituals has been reported during this period, however, the genetic
impact associated with this cultural transformation has not yet been estimated. In order to
investigate this, we sequence Neolithic and Bronze Age samples from Portugal, which we
compare to other ancient and present-day individuals. Genome-wide imputation of a
large dataset of ancient samples enabled sensitive methods for detecting population structure
and selection in ancient samples. We revealed subtle genetic differentiation between
the Portuguese Neolithic and Bronze Age samples suggesting a markedly reduced influx
in Iberia compared to other European regions. Furthermore, we predict individual height
in ancients, suggesting that stature was reduced in the Neolithic and affected by subsequent
admixtures. Lastly, we examine signatures of strong selection in important traits
and the timing of their origins

http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006852&type=printable

Grace O'Malley

10-09-2017, 03:14 AM

Anyway interesting discussion everyone. Keep it up. I have to go now but will look in later this evening. :)

alnortedelsur

10-09-2017, 03:30 AM

I would say that anywhere in NW Europe up to some extent, depending on the individual, but overall, they pass better in West/Northwest France, Belgium, Southern Germany, SW England and Wales.

alnortedelsur

10-09-2017, 03:39 AM

JMack

10-09-2017, 04:23 AM

Irrelevant, Proto-Celts spread their culture and others spread that culture and so on, it was a more cultural transmission process.

Not really, knowing how the Proto-Celts looked like we can certainly know which modern population resemble them the most. It's not really that important but it's an interesting fact anyway.

Ilma

10-09-2017, 06:24 AM

There's a good reason for it, because Celtic is an important part of Iberian ancestry...and that does not mean that all Celts looked alike or had red hair and freckles, that is pure anthrotardism.

Yes of course I was not thinking about the stereotype but some features make me think of Celtic : eye brow shape (half circle looking), big round eyes, round head + smaller jaws (triangle appearance), compressed gonial angle, some shape of noses (upturned + bumps) etc...

Hard to say if this is typical from Celts but I tend to associate it with them in Western phenotypes. I am maybe wrong though.

And yes Iberians have been Celts, we find similarities between phenotypes of Portuguese, Bretons and Irish often as I see.

JohnSmith

10-09-2017, 06:28 AM

They could pass just about anywhere.

Vid Flumina

10-09-2017, 11:06 AM

These 3 could pass as atypical French

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-NCPKZWljmq8/UulffpM3dBI/AAAAAAAALmE/m8GySPn9fUY/s1600/S%25C3%25B3nia+Balac%25C3%25B3%252C+Portuguese_peo ple.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xoE3Jtj3NhY/Ugz9MCAHoHI/AAAAAAAAEM0/EiExxnPK6ww/s1600/In%C3%AAs+Castel+Branco2,+Portuguese_people.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-lffVRAck4x8/UgEKkvVA0QI/AAAAAAAAD5Q/iXfOL-rhOEU/s1600/Sofia+N.,+Bust+-+Portuguese+people.jpg

Overlap is poor with the French, including the Occitans, and not stronger than with the British Isles for example which is interesting.

The "Brit-passing" in my opinion

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-72kK7LjiPK8/UbEIYWCmUgI/AAAAAAAAA4k/lCnWR9JJt0Y/s1600/Sandra+Santos2,+Portuguese_people.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-zUAkEbFCjQE/UkSXNCtovuI/AAAAAAAAF18/FaGjJxqU5JM/s1600/Mariana+Pacheco,+Portuguese_people.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-cdDupenxaxU/Ug4F3yo8eSI/AAAAAAAAEOI/hC1a5yQTup0/s1600/Sofia+Carvalho,+Portuguese_people+(2).jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-C7trJh7Dh1g/UhDB0aKfkqI/AAAAAAAAEQA/BL1iGg7Q5II/s1600/Tiago+Gois+Ferreira,+Portuguese_people.jpg

Wanderer

10-09-2017, 11:51 AM

I think Ireland is the best bet.

Grace O'Malley

10-09-2017, 12:46 PM

I think Ireland is the best bet.

Or any other country and on that list Northern France would be much more likely.

Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas

10-09-2017, 12:52 PM

L21 is not very numerous in Iberia. They are overwhelmingly DF27. Also the Atlantid stuff is old and both Irish and Spanish are not exactly Atlantid. It's very exaggerated.

I am L21 myself. Endovélico also has an Y-DNA that is fairly common in Ireland and British Isles.

Token

10-09-2017, 01:06 PM

It's not an Atlantic connection though. The Bell Beakers came from Central Europe with a heavy does of Steppe. They completely overturned the populations in the British Isles. Iberian genetics is a lot more complicated.
You affirm that like it's a undeniable fact. Actually, the origin of the Beaker culture is still debatable but this has nothing to do with what i am trying to prove, which is a fact that some people refuse to accept.
Contacts between populations along the Atlantic coast occured since the European Megalithic Culture and archeological studies already showed that there is a connection backed by artifacts and findings in general that runs from Central Portugal to Western Norway. During the Atlantic Bronze Age, there was a intense cultural and economic exchange between these regions and, at this time, they were all very similar in terms of social organization and culture in general as shown by Barry Cunlife in 'Atlantic Sea-Ways'.
Look at how there's a clear cultural complex running from Iberia to the British Isles. The Atlantic connection becomes even more evident at the Late Bronze Age.

https://www.progael.com/en/media/GENERAL/MEDIOS/Similitudes%20de%20la%20Europa%20Atlantica/03_SIMIL_Ingles(1).png
The Atlantic ocean was a important route for importation and exportation of culture and materials.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Atlantic_Bronze_Age.gif

We can assume, with all these contacts throughout the history, that a genetic continuity also formed from Iberia to the British Isles.
As i showed before, the distribution of the R1b-L21 lineage suggests a clear Atlantic connection and symbolizes the contacts that occured between the populations. This is also true for the distribution of the Celtiberian(?) lineage R1b-DF27 that also suggests not only a cultural but also a genetic exchange. The two lineages combined corresponds perfectly with the Atlantic Europe complex.
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/58/e7/4c/58e74c7257238815206b235a9271eb3e--genetics-ancestry.jpg

Grace O'Malley

10-09-2017, 01:34 PM

You affirm that like it's a undeniable fact. Actually, the origin of the Beaker culture is still debatable but this has nothing to do with what i am trying to prove, which is a fact that some people refuse to accept.
Contacts between populations along the Atlantic coast occured since the European Megalithic Culture and archeological studies already showed that there is a connection backed by artifacts and findings in general that runs from Central Portugal to Western Norway. During the Atlantic Bronze Age, there was a intense cultural and economic exchange between these regions and, at this time, they were all very similar in terms of social organization and culture in general as shown by Barry Cunlife in 'Atlantic Sea-Ways'.
Look at how there's a clear cultural complex running from Iberia to the British Isles. The Atlantic connection becomes even more evident at the Late Bronze Age.

https://www.progael.com/en/media/GENERAL/MEDIOS/Similitudes%20de%20la%20Europa%20Atlantica/03_SIMIL_Ingles(1).png
The Atlantic ocean was a important route for importation and exportation of culture and materials.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Atlantic_Bronze_Age.gif

We can assume, with all these contacts throughout the history, that a genetic continuity also formed from Iberia to the British Isles.
As i showed before, the distribution of the R1b-L21 lineage suggests a clear Atlantic connection and symbolizes the contacts that occured between the populations. This is also true for the distribution of the Celtiberian(?) lineage R1b-DF27 that also suggests not only a cultural but also a genetic exchange. The two lineages combined corresponds perfectly with the Atlantic Europe complex.
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/58/e7/4c/58e74c7257238815206b235a9271eb3e--genetics-ancestry.jpg

The only thing with that though is that most of the Irish and British population is basically a Bronze Age population and R1b came from the Steppes so it is an east to west movement. The megalithic culture was virtually extinct in these places. The modern populations of those areas don't have any more connection than most other Europeans. In fact Germans are closer to both Irish / British and Spanish than either are to each other including other populations like the Belgians, French, Swiss, Northern Italians, South Dutch etc which separate both these populations. As I'm trying to show there is no special link despite what some people are trying to push here. Just look at any dna plot and see for yourself.

As far as culture Insular Celtic culture is it's own thing and the only European country that would have connections is Brittany. Enjoying the discussion though so thanks for your contributions.

It is also noticeable when looking at the Big Y that even L21s that are in Spain are separated from Irish / British by about 4,000 years which interestingly enough is during the Bell Beaker period. Anyway the Bell Beakers that came to Ireland / Britain were high in Steppe and the most similar where Dutch Bell Beakers. It is all in the paper I posted.

Grace O'Malley

10-09-2017, 01:45 PM

I am L21 myself. Endovélico also has an Y-DNA that is fairly common in Ireland and British Isles.

Do you have a British / Irish specific subclade because most Continental Europeans don't? Even people from Normandy where L21 is far more numerous are separated from British / Irish by approximately 4,000 years.

The best way to tease out information is by getting the Big Y done. My brother's is due any moment although he is M222.

Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas

10-09-2017, 01:46 PM

Do you have a British / Irish specific subclade because most Continental Europeans don't? Even people from Normandy where L21 is far more numerous are separated from British / Irish by approximately 4,000 years.

The best way to tease out information is by getting the Big Y done. My brother's is due any moment although he is M222.

I don't know it. I should test it.

Grace O'Malley

10-09-2017, 01:49 PM

I don't know it. I should test it.

Yes you should but of course it is all money. I look on it as an investment for future generations and also for the greater good of the genetic community. :) The only possibility of someone from Spain or Portugal having an Irish specific subclade is if they are descendants of a group like the Wild Geese or some random Irishman but most Spanish will find they aren't.

Do you know what subclade you are under L21?

Sikeliot

10-09-2017, 02:00 PM

All British are well distinguished from Iberians when we analize groups of populations, no matter if they are from the north or south. No matter what people might say, Iberians despite having some specificities are generally closer to other southern Europeans - Italians, part of the French and Greeks.

Iberians are absolutely not closer genetically to southern Italians and Aegean islanders than to Brits/Irish (even though phenotypically I think they overlap with all of these to different extents).

Sikeliot

10-09-2017, 02:02 PM

There isn't any Atlantic connection. The Atlantic connection is vastly overemphasised and exaggerated as anyone can see with both looks and genetics. If you look at a Spanish person's Gedmatch results they don't have any particular connection running along the Atlantic ocean. They are much closer to populations geographically closer and by land. No one can post anything to show any evidence of this supposed Atlantic connection.

There is a big Irish genetic study called the Irish DNA Atlas and most info is going to be released on this in about a week and a half but results already show they are just more similar to their neighbours geographically.

Here is an admixture table from this study. The populations are rather different.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/313535603/figure/fig2/AS:462539025850371@1487289305936/Figure-2-Ancestry-profiles-of-the-Irish-Travellers-and-neighbouring-European.jpg

Irish actually have LESS "Spanish like" ancestry than the English according to this, and it makes sense if you see some Irish results shifting toward Scandinavia.

But you do see in your own results, your closest Southern European population is in fact Iberians. Not Italy, not Greece, etc.

Sikeliot

10-09-2017, 02:03 PM

It has nothing to do with Germanic influences. Those populations were always different due to different amounts of Bell Beaker influences not incursions from Germanics. The Irish are more distant to the Spanish than the English even though the English have had more Germanic incursions.

I've been saying this too. Southern England and Wales have a closer genetic relationship to Iberia than Ireland does.

Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas

10-09-2017, 02:13 PM

Do you know what subclade you are under L21?

I did 23andme so I don't know my subclade.

Token

10-09-2017, 05:37 PM

The only thing with that though is that most of the Irish and British population is basically a Bronze Age population and R1b came from the Steppes so it is an east to west movement. The megalithic culture was virtually extinct in these places. The modern populations of those areas don't have any more connection than most other Europeans. In fact Germans are closer to both Irish / British and Spanish than either are to each other including other populations like the Belgians, French, Swiss, Northern Italians, South Dutch etc which separate both these populations. As I'm trying to show there is no special link despite what some people are trying to push here. Just look at any dna plot and see for yourself.

As far as culture Insular Celtic culture is it's own thing and the only European country that would have connections is Brittany. Enjoying the discussion though so thanks for your contributions.

It is also noticeable when looking at the Big Y that even L21s that are in Spain are separated from Irish / British by about 4,000 years which interestingly enough is during the Bell Beaker period. Anyway the Bell Beakers that came to Ireland / Britain were high in Steppe and the most similar where Dutch Bell Beakers. It is all in the paper I posted.

So you are saying that the modern British and Irish people are Bronze Age invaders? I don't agree with that and would like to know why you think so.
You keep pushing genetic evidences to prove that the British and Irish are different from the Iberians. It's obvious that they are and today they are closer to other Northern Europeans just like Iberians are to Southern-Central Europeans but both populations are linked since the pre-history and this connection became stronger during the Late Bronze age. The Celts in Iberia and Ireland spoke Celtic languages from the same group (Q-Celtic) and till today you can see the similarities between the culture of Ireland and Northwestern Iberia (Northern Portugal and Galicia). Archeological findings, like i posted before, also attest this connection. Going by linguistical and archeological evidences, it's very probable that the Celts that inhabited Iberia and Ireland were pretty similar in culture and social organization.

Grace O'Malley

10-09-2017, 06:43 PM

So you are saying that the modern British and Irish people are Bronze Age invaders? I don't agree with that and would like to know why you think so.
You keep pushing genetic evidences to prove that the British and Irish are different from the Iberians. It's obvious that they are and today they are closer to other Northern Europeans just like Iberians are to Southern-Central Europeans but both populations are linked since the pre-history and this connection became stronger during the Late Bronze age. The Celts in Iberia and Ireland spoke Celtic languages from the same group (Q-Celtic) and till today you can see the similarities between the culture of Ireland and Northwestern Iberia (Northern Portugal and Galicia). Archeological findings, like i posted before, also attest this connection. Going by linguistical and archeological evidences, it's very probable that the Celts that inhabited Iberia and Ireland were pretty similar in culture and social organization.

It's just facts that there was a near total population replacement of both Britain and Ireland in the Bronze Age. Those studies I've linked go into detail.

Professor Dan Bradley himself said that there was a population replacement of Ireland during the Bronze Age.

But the latest study throws more light on the birth of a nation. All three dead men from Rathlin Island carried what is now the most common type of Irish Y chromosome, inherited only from male forebears. [. . .]

And Lara Cassidy, a researcher in genetics at Trinity College Dublin and another co-author, said “Genetic affinity is strongest between Bronze Age genomes and modern Irish, Scottish and Welsh, suggesting establishment of central attributes of the insular Celtic genome 4,000 years ago.”

Also in Britain it is estimated that there was a 93% population replacement which is in the paper linked early about the genetic change in Northwestern Europe during the Bronze Age.

These are not my words but the actual geneticists involved in these studies.

You can see the results in this heat graph.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Lara_Cassidy/publication/288684475/figure/fig2/AS:391357509193757@1470318309809/Fig-3-Comparison-of-Irish-and-Central-European-ancient-genomes-for-haplotype-based.png

Grace O'Malley

10-09-2017, 06:54 PM

Irish actually have LESS "Spanish like" ancestry than the English according to this, and it makes sense if you see some Irish results shifting toward Scandinavia.

But you do see in your own results, your closest Southern European population is in fact Iberians. Not Italy, not Greece, etc.

Why would my results be closer to Italy or Greece when they are even further geographically from Ireland. The facts though are that even the Finnish are closer than the Spanish so that doesn't show much of a connection. Your point is that of Southern Europeans Spanish are closer but that just doesn't really mean much really. The area that shows up in my results is Northern Spain which makes sense. The Italians and Greeks are the Southern Europeans further away both geographically and genetically. Places that aren't close geographically like Austria though are closer to Irish than Spanish who are geographically closer. This is because there is a bigger divide North / South than West / East genetically in Europe.

Lemon Kush

10-09-2017, 06:58 PM

Scotland and Wales

Bloody

10-09-2017, 08:32 PM

What about Belgians, South Dutch etc? Generally those populations are closer. I've seen Southwest English, Cornish etc at the bottom of populations for Iberian people on Gedmatch and usually Irish don't even appear. It's all a bit random with what populations appear. Some Iberians get places like Serbia. I still think people are too caught up on this old "Atlantic Facade" and Celtic myth to a certain degree. If not they talk about a "Western" connection which isn't there either.

With Irish Gedmatch results they are much closer to people like Dutch and Scandinavians but everyone is hung on these "Celtic" connections. :)

I guess this man talks exclusively about physical appearance...

only a small subset of genes determine physical appearance... Irish and British have their own looks, which isnt Germanic, but neither Iberian/west-med.

the untrained eye can easily confuse the Germans for the Dutch, and both of them for Southern Scandinavians.. however English and British Islanders in general look different, unlike the common misconception that british have long face, in face lot of them have very round faces, bushy eye brows, smaller forehead, weaker noses, which are uncommon in very germanic looking people like Dutch, Germans or Danes/Southern Swedes. Steven gerrard for example if I see him in Germany, Netherlands or Denmark/Sweden I inmediately know he is from the UK, and also long faced types look quite different, for example Roger Waters.. I never seen anyone like that in Continental europe.

Damião de Góis

10-09-2017, 10:25 PM

They are nice looking people. Are they actors?

I see actors, journalists, models, politicians, singers, tv presenters. All of them have names and birth places.

And i agree with you, i don't see any overlap with the irish among the people on those picutures.

Grace O'Malley

10-10-2017, 01:28 AM

I see actors, journalists, models, politicians, singers, tv presenters. All of them have names and birth places.

And i agree with you, i don't see any overlap with the irish among the people on those picutures.

They are their own people and I think people over emphasise some of these connections. All Europeans can look like each other but some people try to push a closer connection between certain populations that isn't there. The people pictured are very attractive but people look more like their neighbouring populations which I know you would agree with Endovélico.

Grace O'Malley

10-10-2017, 01:31 AM

I guess this man talks exclusively about physical appearance...

only a small subset of genes determine physical appearance... Irish and British have their own looks, which isnt Germanic, but neither Iberian/west-med.

the untrained eye can easily confuse the Germans for the Dutch, and both of them for Southern Scandinavians.. however English and British Islanders in general look different, unlike the common misconception that british have long face, in face lot of them have very round faces, bushy eye brows, smaller forehead, weaker noses, which are uncommon in very germanic looking people like Dutch, Germans or Danes/Southern Swedes. Steven gerrard for example if I see him in Germany, Netherlands or Denmark/Sweden I inmediately know he is from the UK, and also long faced types look quite different, for example Roger Waters.. I never seen anyone like that in Continental europe.

They look like Northwestern Europeans and no they don't have "very round faces, bushy eye brows, smaller forehead, weaker noses" as anyone knows. That's just your prejudices coming through. :D Everyone knows how you feel about the Brits and by extension the Irish, Aussies, Americans, Kiwis etc.

Sikeliot

10-10-2017, 10:13 PM

Why would my results be closer to Italy or Greece when they are even further geographically from Ireland. The facts though are that even the Finnish are closer than the Spanish so that doesn't show much of a connection. Your point is that of Southern Europeans Spanish are closer but that just doesn't really mean much really. The area that shows up in my results is Northern Spain which makes sense. The Italians and Greeks are the Southern Europeans further away both geographically and genetically. Places that aren't close geographically like Austria though are closer to Irish than Spanish who are geographically closer. This is because there is a bigger divide North / South than West / East genetically in Europe.

Spaniards are closer to the Brits and Irish than they are to southern Italians genetically. This is just for context. In reality we know they are not that close to either, but if you'd be inclined to view Spaniards as similar to Sicilians or Cretans, they are genetically closer to Irish.

Grace O'Malley

10-11-2017, 01:17 AM

Spaniards are closer to the Brits and Irish than they are to southern Italians genetically. This is just for context. In reality we know they are not that close to either, but if you'd be inclined to view Spaniards as similar to Sicilians or Cretans, they are genetically closer to Irish.

I don't view Spaniards as similar to Sicilians or Cretans. But saying that Brits and Irish are closer to Spanish than southern Italians is like saying that Irish are closer to Finnish than Spanish. What does that mean really? Does anyone say that Irish and Finnish have a connection other than that they are both Europeans? One population is slightly closer to X than Y. They aren't particularly close to either in a European context. Anyway with all these places there are clines. Even looking at the Netherlands the South Dutch are closer to the Spanish than the North Dutch. The Western Germans are closer than the Eastern and Northern Germans. The Southern parts of England are closer to the Spanish and the Irish are more distant. The Spanish that are closer to these populations are the Catalans and Northern Spanish. It is all on a cline. Spanish are far closer to Northern Italians than any other populations along with the Portuguese and Southern French.

There is no Celtic connection or Megalithic connection that shows up genetically. Both are sort of murky categories anyway.

Eurafricanid

08-18-2023, 05:27 AM

I don't view Spaniards as similar to Sicilians or Cretans. But saying that Brits and Irish are closer to Spanish than southern Italians is like saying that Irish are closer to Finnish than Spanish. What does that mean really? Does anyone say that Irish and Finnish have a connection other than that they are both Europeans? One population is slightly closer to X than Y. They aren't particularly close to either in a European context. Anyway with all these places there are clines. Even looking at the Netherlands the South Dutch are closer to the Spanish than the North Dutch. The Western Germans are closer than the Eastern and Northern Germans. The Southern parts of England are closer to the Spanish and the Irish are more distant. The Spanish that are closer to these populations are the Catalans and Northern Spanish. It is all on a cline. Spanish are far closer to Northern Italians than any other populations along with the Portuguese and Southern French.

There is no Celtic connection or Megalithic connection that shows up genetically. Both are sort of murky categories anyway.

I hate to take this conversation right out of the grave, but I wanted to see it, and I am shocked:

Distance to: Irish
0.07298030 Spanish_Cataluna
0.07422656 Finnish_Southwest
0.07998740 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.08337345 Finnish_Central

I actually wasn't expecting that!

But yeah, besides that, overall, you're right.

Distance to: Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.04876820 French_Nord
0.07071782 English_Cornwall
0.07397979 Dutch
0.07998740 Irish
0.08367441 Italian_Calabria
0.09316491 Greek_Crete

Grace O'Malley

08-18-2023, 10:35 AM

I hate to take this conversation right out of the grave, but I wanted to see it, and I am shocked:

Distance to: Irish
0.07298030 Spanish_Cataluna
0.07422656 Finnish_Southwest
0.07998740 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.08337345 Finnish_Central

I actually wasn't expecting that!

But yeah, besides that, overall, you're right.

Distance to: Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.04876820 French_Nord
0.07071782 English_Cornwall
0.07397979 Dutch
0.07998740 Irish
0.08367441 Italian_Calabria
0.09316491 Greek_Crete

I would have been going off my own results also then because I had no G25 but Gedmatch.

These are my results with G25. Also when you think Finns are quite distant genetically and yet Spanish are on the Atlantic seaboard and people push this connection. I know that history i.e. the Celts and Atlantic Facade etc but some Slavic East European populations are closer and no one pushes connections with them. It doesn't really happen any more now because people are more familiar with genetics and also quite a few studies have come out over the last few years.

Distance to: Grace_scaled
0.07296989 Finnish_Southwest
0.07728130 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.07831396 Finnish_Southeast
0.08009438 Spanish_Cataluna
0.08134033 Finnish_Central
0.08683009 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha

Distance to: Grace_scaled
0.01848790 Irish
0.01914452 Icelandic
0.01963632 Scottish
0.01980300 Orcadian
0.02018258 Danish
0.02022725 Norwegian
0.02206228 English
0.02219810 Welsh
0.02416060 Dutch
0.02454052 English_Cornwall
0.02493577 Shetlandic
0.02758167 French_Brittany
0.02919872 Swedish
0.03333011 German
0.03363452 German_Hamburg
0.03551185 BelgianA
0.03777837 Afrikaner
0.04000956 German_Erlangen
0.04111373 French_Seine-Maritime
0.04121539 BelgianB
0.04124589 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.04377645 German_East
0.04383614 French_Nord
0.04598379 BelgianC
0.04754192 Austrian
0.04759052 French_Alsace
0.04761548 French_Paris
0.04816810 Czech
0.05029695 Swiss_German
0.05444134 Hungarian
0.05758405 Polish_Silesian
0.05810468 French_Occitanie
0.06055514 Slovenian
0.06076095 Slovakian
0.06099953 Croatian
0.06216074 Polish_Kashubian
0.06244625 French_Auvergne
0.06462540 Polish
0.06464720 Swiss_French
0.06557739 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.06725697 Ukrainian_Lviv
0.07027141 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.07074837 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.07109016 French_Provence
0.07131784 Bosnian
0.07171106 Basque_Araba
0.07173542 Moldovan_o
0.07296989 Finnish_Southwest
0.07377269 Moldovan
0.07379135 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.07380695 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.07409128 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.07487439 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.07514324 Montenegrin
0.07516348 Spanish_Penedes
0.07608760 Spanish_Barcelones
0.07630886 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.07634465 French_Chalosse
0.07645254 Serbian
0.07669061 Spanish_Biscay
0.07691614 Russian_Voronez
0.07712721 Russian_Belgorod
0.07728130 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.07739087 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.07747724 Spanish_Aragon_North
0.07748194 Spanish_Girona
0.07754333 Russian_Orel
0.07757584 Russian_Kursk
0.07780406 French_South
0.07793697 Italian_Northeast
0.07831181 Russian_Smolensk
0.07831396 Finnish_Southeast
0.07843534 Spanish_Lleida
0.07849207 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.07889670 Basque_Roncal
0.07891472 French_Bearn
0.07894115 Basque_Gipuzkoa_Southwest
0.07916691 Spanish_Pais_Vasco
0.07926743 Russian_Kaluga
0.07927795 Basque_Biscay
0.07931593 Russian_Ryazan
0.07952284 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.07978315 Spanish_Mallorca
0.07979962 Italian_Friuli_Venezia_Giulia_Sappada
0.08009438 Spanish_Cataluna
0.08018024 Basque_French
0.08052245 Romanian
0.08059316 Basque_Gipuzkoa
0.08060238 Spanish_Soria
0.08080232 French_Bigorre
0.08104556 Cossack_Kuban
0.08111626 Basque_Lower_Navarre
0.08117515 Belarusian
0.08128012 Spanish_Burgos
0.08134033 Finnish_Central
0.08191301 Basque_Baztan
0.08207535 Spanish_Castello
0.08222034 Spanish_Pirineu
0.08230282 Basque_Navarre_Center
0.08244065 Russian_Tver
0.08258874 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.08262377 Basque_Spanish
0.08314324 Spanish_Cantabria
0.08335109 Ingrian
0.08358207 Spanish_Valencia
0.08366022 Spanish_Aragon
0.08368274 Russian_Pskov
0.08382141 Lithuanian_PA
0.08413045 Basque_Navarre_North
0.08416146 Spanish_Navarra
0.08421667 Italian_Trentino_Alto_Adige
0.08437811 Estonian
0.08453856 Spanish_Alacant
0.08460214 Spanish_Eivissa
0.08461408 Russian_Yaroslavl
0.08462912 Spanish_Baleares
0.08496293 Spanish_La_Rioja
0.08529792 Spanish_Galicia
0.08603247 Basque_Soule
0.08640517 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
0.08664242 Lithuanian_VA
0.08683009 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.08685421 Italian_Veneto
0.08747557 Moksha
0.08775701 Spanish_Asturias
0.08850740 Russian_Kostroma
0.08901206 Macedonian
0.08906773 Bulgarian
0.08962008 Spanish_Menorca
0.08993079 Portuguese
0.09050665 Spanish_Andalucia
0.09099926 Lithuanian_VZ
0.09122757 Spanish_Extremadura
0.09187435 Spanish_Murcia
0.09272449 Finnish_North
0.09279029 Erzya
0.09382075 Italian_Bergamo
0.09494843 Lithuanian_RA
0.09494934 Italian_Piedmont
0.09526858 Russian_Krasnoborsky
0.09543377 Lithuanian_PZ
0.09569529 Swiss_Italian
0.09570481 Gagauz
0.09612235 Finnish_East
0.09646066 Italian_Liguria
0.09731429 Karelian
0.09755705 Lithuanian_SZ
0.09906082 Latvian
0.09948654 Italian_Lombardy
0.10128617 Italian_Emilia
0.10190213 Greek_East_Macedonia_and_Thrace
0.10210286 Turkish_Deliorman
0.10308603 Vepsian
0.10800716 Italian_Tuscany
0.10992052 Rumelia_East
0.11022177 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.11085354 Greek_Macedonia
0.11097270 Greek_Thessaly
0.11137247 French_Corsica
0.11142238 Spanish_Canarias
0.11197318 Albanian

Eurafricanid

08-18-2023, 03:58 PM

I would have been going off my own results also then because I had no G25 but Gedmatch.

These are my results with G25. Also when you think Finns are quite distant genetically and yet Spanish are on the Atlantic seaboard and people push this connection. I know that history i.e. the Celts and Atlantic Facade etc but some Slavic East European populations are closer and no one pushes connections with them. It doesn't really happen any more now because people are more familiar with genetics and also quite a few studies have come out over the last few years.
...

Although I do understand your pont there's clearly a West-East incline in Europe along with the North-South incline.
Also, I don't think you should use your coordinates, since they don't represent the Irish population the best and are significantly East-shifted compaired to the Irish average:

Distance to: Irish
0.00733157 Scottish
0.00968303 Orcadian
0.01206355 English
0.01256714 Welsh
0.01418769 English_Cornwall
0.01420498 Shetlandic
0.01572625 Dutch
0.01622884 Icelandic
0.01629774 Norwegian
0.01669446 Danish
0.01733394 French_Brittany
0.02745489 BelgianA
0.02834397 German
0.02884688 Afrikaner
0.03005819 Swedish
0.03031386 German_Hamburg
0.03343895 BelgianB
0.03516608 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.03555467 French_Seine-Maritime
0.03557018 German_Erlangen
0.03642944 French_Nord
0.03832801 BelgianC
0.03924328 French_Paris
0.04038386 French_Alsace
0.04221782 German_East
0.04304384 Swiss_German
0.04312622 Austrian
0.04795519 Czech
0.05116941 French_Occitanie
0.05154234 Hungarian
0.05580406 French_Auvergne
0.05818600 Swiss_French
0.05842252 Slovenian
0.05865498 Croatian
0.05873525 Polish_Silesian
0.06113442 Slovakian
0.06354105 French_Provence
0.06443014 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.06501353 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.06510657 Polish_Kashubian
0.06554533 Basque_Araba
0.06658504 Polish
0.06787571 Ukrainian_Lviv
0.06804656 Spanish_Penedes
0.06850309 Bosnian
0.06896800 Spanish_Barcelones
0.06964351 Spanish_Biscay
0.07016742 Spanish_Girona
0.07016983 French_Chalosse
0.07034584 Moldovan
0.07065757 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.07105642 Spanish_Aragon_North
0.07107387 Montenegrin
0.07130305 French_South
0.07132715 Moldovan_o
0.07146714 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.07151474 Spanish_Lleida
0.07172595 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.07178426 Italian_Northeast
0.07226668 Italian_Friuli_Venezia_Giulia_Sappada
0.07247918 Spanish_Pais_Vasco
0.07248195 Serbian
0.07264948 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.07285249 Spanish_Mallorca
0.07286545 French_Bearn
0.07298030 Spanish_Cataluna
0.07322692 Basque_Biscay
0.07333055 Basque_Roncal
0.07374918 Basque_Gipuzkoa_Southwest
0.07384057 French_Bigorre
0.07422656 Finnish_Southwest
0.07432312 Basque_French
0.07456774 Spanish_Burgos
0.07464660 Spanish_Soria
0.07495592 Basque_Gipuzkoa
0.07523688 Basque_Lower_Navarre
0.07541795 Romanian
0.07557648 Spanish_Pirineu
0.07564906 Spanish_Castello
0.07571669 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.07582018 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.07606419 Basque_Navarre_Center
0.07619860 Basque_Baztan
0.07621349 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.07632090 Spanish_Cantabria
0.07632921 Basque_Spanish
0.07643520 Spanish_Aragon
0.07644426 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.07645875 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.07665759 Spanish_Valencia
0.07691357 Spanish_Navarra
0.07713011 Spanish_Baleares
0.07742587 Spanish_Alacant
0.07754335 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.07792216 Spanish_Eivissa
0.07796783 Italian_Trentino_Alto_Adige
0.07813336 Spanish_Galicia
0.07841453 Basque_Navarre_North
0.07873089 Spanish_La_Rioja
0.07888078 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon

Also, the most eastern populations are actually the Baltics, not Russians or Ukrainians, since they descend from more Wester-shifted populations.

Distance to: Irish
0.06896800 Spanish_Barcelones
0.07298030 Spanish_Cataluna
0.07665759 Spanish_Valencia
0.07691357 Spanish_Navarra
0.07713011 Spanish_Baleares
0.07998740 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.08336598 Spanish_Andalucia
0.08359588 Belarusian
0.08692249 Lithuanian_PA
0.08833364 Estonian
0.09100106 Lithuanian_VA
0.09477878 Lithuanian_VZ
0.09877669 Lithuanian_RA
0.10002714 Lithuanian_PZ
0.10206487 Lithuanian_SZ
0.10365417 Latvian

Grace O'Malley

08-18-2023, 04:40 PM

Although I do understand your pont there's clearly a West-East incline in Europe along with the North-South incline.
Also, I don't think you should use your coordinates, since they don't represent the Irish population the best and are significantly East-shifted compaired to the Irish average:

Distance to: Irish
0.00733157 Scottish
0.00968303 Orcadian
0.01206355 English
0.01256714 Welsh
0.01418769 English_Cornwall
0.01420498 Shetlandic
0.01572625 Dutch
0.01622884 Icelandic
0.01629774 Norwegian
0.01669446 Danish
0.01733394 French_Brittany
0.02745489 BelgianA
0.02834397 German
0.02884688 Afrikaner
0.03005819 Swedish
0.03031386 German_Hamburg
0.03343895 BelgianB
0.03516608 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.03555467 French_Seine-Maritime
0.03557018 German_Erlangen
0.03642944 French_Nord
0.03832801 BelgianC
0.03924328 French_Paris
0.04038386 French_Alsace
0.04221782 German_East
0.04304384 Swiss_German
0.04312622 Austrian
0.04795519 Czech
0.05116941 French_Occitanie
0.05154234 Hungarian
0.05580406 French_Auvergne
0.05818600 Swiss_French
0.05842252 Slovenian
0.05865498 Croatian
0.05873525 Polish_Silesian
0.06113442 Slovakian
0.06354105 French_Provence
0.06443014 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.06501353 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.06510657 Polish_Kashubian
0.06554533 Basque_Araba
0.06658504 Polish
0.06787571 Ukrainian_Lviv
0.06804656 Spanish_Penedes
0.06850309 Bosnian
0.06896800 Spanish_Barcelones
0.06964351 Spanish_Biscay
0.07016742 Spanish_Girona
0.07016983 French_Chalosse
0.07034584 Moldovan
0.07065757 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.07105642 Spanish_Aragon_North
0.07107387 Montenegrin
0.07130305 French_South
0.07132715 Moldovan_o
0.07146714 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.07151474 Spanish_Lleida
0.07172595 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.07178426 Italian_Northeast
0.07226668 Italian_Friuli_Venezia_Giulia_Sappada
0.07247918 Spanish_Pais_Vasco
0.07248195 Serbian
0.07264948 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.07285249 Spanish_Mallorca
0.07286545 French_Bearn
0.07298030 Spanish_Cataluna
0.07322692 Basque_Biscay
0.07333055 Basque_Roncal
0.07374918 Basque_Gipuzkoa_Southwest
0.07384057 French_Bigorre
0.07422656 Finnish_Southwest
0.07432312 Basque_French
0.07456774 Spanish_Burgos
0.07464660 Spanish_Soria
0.07495592 Basque_Gipuzkoa
0.07523688 Basque_Lower_Navarre
0.07541795 Romanian
0.07557648 Spanish_Pirineu
0.07564906 Spanish_Castello
0.07571669 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.07582018 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.07606419 Basque_Navarre_Center
0.07619860 Basque_Baztan
0.07621349 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.07632090 Spanish_Cantabria
0.07632921 Basque_Spanish
0.07643520 Spanish_Aragon
0.07644426 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.07645875 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.07665759 Spanish_Valencia
0.07691357 Spanish_Navarra
0.07713011 Spanish_Baleares
0.07742587 Spanish_Alacant
0.07754335 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.07792216 Spanish_Eivissa
0.07796783 Italian_Trentino_Alto_Adige
0.07813336 Spanish_Galicia
0.07841453 Basque_Navarre_North
0.07873089 Spanish_La_Rioja
0.07888078 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon

Also, the most eastern populations are actually the Baltics, not Russians or Ukrainians, since they descend from more Wester-shifted populations.

Distance to: Irish
0.06896800 Spanish_Barcelones
0.07298030 Spanish_Cataluna
0.07665759 Spanish_Valencia
0.07691357 Spanish_Navarra
0.07713011 Spanish_Baleares
0.07998740 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.08336598 Spanish_Andalucia
0.08359588 Belarusian
0.08692249 Lithuanian_PA
0.08833364 Estonian
0.09100106 Lithuanian_VA
0.09477878 Lithuanian_VZ
0.09877669 Lithuanian_RA
0.10002714 Lithuanian_PZ
0.10206487 Lithuanian_SZ
0.10365417 Latvian

I don't think I'm an outlier as far as the Irish go. There is no reason why I would be because I don't have any ancestry other than Irish. Creoda's father has similar result to mine. The sample in G25 might be more from the Dublin area as that would make sense as that's where the largest population base is. All I had was my results previously in this thread because people didn't have all these samples and calculators then. Anyway the Irish average still shows that the populations Ireland are closest to are other northwestern populations and even Poles are closer than any Spanish region. Anyway this thread is older and people now don't really push these connections like they used to in the past.

Eurafricanid

08-18-2023, 08:27 PM

I don't think I'm an outlier as far as the Irish go. There is no reason why I would be because I don't have any ancestry other than Irish. Creoda's father has similar result to mine. The sample in G25 might be more from the Dublin area as that would make sense as that's where the largest population base is. All I had was my results previously in this thread because people didn't have all these samples and calculators then. Anyway the Irish average still shows that the populations Ireland are closest to are other northwestern populations and even Poles are closer than any Spanish region. Anyway this thread is older and people now don't really push these connections like they used to in the past.

As I said I do agree with you and I'm not pushing that the populations are more similar than their neighbors, but that there is a east-west axes in Europe, as the Polish, for example are only closer to the Irish because they're more central European (not as eastern) WHILE being very northern, a Latvian is as northern as an Irish, but it's way too eastern, making the Spanish closer, same thing goes with the southern Italians and spaniards, do you understand what I'm talking about? The Iberians are the most southern it gets in western Europe, but even then they're very distant from southern Italians, because they are more eastern, dispite being as southern.

P.S.: You don't need to have foreign input to be an outlier. And you are indeed more eastern than the Irish average (which, btw is composed of dozens and dozens of samples)

Grace O'Malley

08-19-2023, 02:32 AM

As I said I do agree with you and I'm not pushing that the populations are more similar than their neighbors, but that there is a east-west axes in Europe, as the Polish, for example are only closer to the Irish because they're more central European (not as eastern) WHILE being very northern, a Latvian is as northern as an Irish, but it's way too eastern, making the Spanish closer, same thing goes with the southern Italians and spaniards, do you understand what I'm talking about? The Iberians are the most southern it gets in western Europe, but even then they're very distant from southern Italians, because they are more eastern, dispite being as southern.

P.S.: You don't need to have foreign input to be an outlier. And you are indeed more eastern than the Irish average (which, btw is composed of dozens and dozens of samples)

The biggest differences are however between north and south as the west to east differences aren't as pronounced. As I'm pointing out there is no Atlantic or Western European cluster. That is the main point I was making here in the discussion in this thread. There are always interesting aspects to observe regarding populations. What is interesting is that geography is not always an indicator of how close or distant populations are. Another point that I was making was that there is a bit of an obsession with people trying to link certain populations together when there is no special link. In the past on here it was the Atlantic Facade type thing which is still something that you see people still pushing. I still come across things like the Basque are the closest population to the Irish. That was something that was very much reported on about 20 years ago but people are still stating these things on the net despite the huge updates on genetics that have been done since that period. Most people still have very limited knowledge on the topic of genetics.