My theory on the origins of the Proto-Germanic people...

[keyoghettson]

Go to my blog for more info on the origins of the Proto-Germanic people:

http://www.keyoghettson.com/2010/11/proto-germanic-people_30.html

[Vasconcelos]

It's your second post on this forum, and both of them contail the very same thing.

Please, present yourself to us, before spamming us to death with the same website.

[keyoghettson]

I'm not spamming. My plan was to make one post but i wanted to make another post as a comment to another post. That's all.

[Jaska]

Go to my blog for more info on the origins of the Proto-Germanic people:

http://www.keyoghettson.com/2010/11/proto-germanic-people_30.html
Hmmm...
First you say it's hybrid of two IE languages, but then you draw in some non-IE language, too. There truly seems to be non-IE substratum in Germanic, but the same goes with almost all the branches. And linguistically there is nothing Satem-like in Germanic

Also Germanic seems to have born in Northern Europe, as there are Pre-Proto-Germanic, Palaeo-Germanic, Proto-Germanic, Northwest-Germanic etc. loanwords in both Finnic and Saamic. I think your hypothesis ignores this fact.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Hmmm...
Also Germanic seems to have born in Northern Europe, as there are Pre-Proto-Germanic, Palaeo-Germanic, Proto-Germanic, Northwest-Germanic etc. loanwords in both Finnic and Saamic. I think your hypothesis ignores this fact.
How old do you think that the oldest Pre-proto- Germanic words are which are present in Finnic and Saamic?

[Jaska]

How old do you think that the oldest Pre-proto- Germanic words are which are present in Finnic and Saamic?
Roughly from 2nd millennium BC. Before that it is mainly impossible to distinguish if the Northwest Indo-European loanwords are borrowed from Pre-Germanic or Pre-Balto-Slavic branch, even though areally these branches were separated right after the spread of the Corded Ware culture.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

4000 years ago. What in your opinion, indicates that these words were picked up in the Baltic sea region by a newly arrived Uralic speaking group?
Where were the Indo Aryan words in Finnic picked up?

[Jaska]

4000 years ago. What in your opinion, indicates that these words were picked up in the Baltic sea region by a newly arrived Uralic speaking group?
Nothing in these words can tell if the Uralic speakers were newly arrived - that is the conclusion based on some other things (maybe you didn't mean it that way?). But about the location near Baltic Sea: the Northwest Indo-European loanwords have a Finno-Permic distribution, while these little later Pre-Germanic loanwords have Finno-Saamic disribution, which is similar to the distribution of later Germanic loanwords.


Where were the Indo Aryan words in Finnic picked up?
It is still not sure if there are truly Indo-Aryan loanwords, but Proto-Aryan = Indo-Iranian loanwords began to appear even in Late Proto-Uralic; Proto-Iranian stage started about 1800 BC, and some Iranian loanwords have very western distribution (Finnic and/or Saamic). So even some of the Iranian loanwords might precede the Pre-Germanic loanwords. Iranian language was from early on spoken as near as in Upper Volga area, while Finnic and Saamic were born right northwest of it.

[Magister Eckhart]

I say leave theorizing over the origin of ancient languages to people who know what they're talking about and publish in places a little more scholarly than some blog in a dark corner of the internet that reeks of Nordicism, ODESSA, and conspiracy theories.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Nothing in these words can tell if the Uralic speakers were newly arrived - that is the conclusion based on some other things (maybe you didn't mean it that way?).
This is what interests me, what other things, assuming they are not linguistic? Cultural and linguistic diffusion reveals no concrete evidences, what I know off.
Is there a new culture emerging in the area 4000 years ago? I'm not aware of any such which can be connected to the "arrival" of Uralic speakers from Volga but there maybe evidences of an arrival from the Baltics during that time but that is connected to a northwest European cultural sphere.


But about the location near Baltic Sea: the Northwest Indo-European loanwords have a Finno-Permic distribution, while these little later Pre-Germanic loanwords have Finno-Saamic disribution, which is similar to the distribution of later Germanic loanwords.
I assume that with pre you mean fi.kanta and not pre as in an earlier, non (proto)-Germanic language?


It is still not sure if there are truly Indo-Aryan loanwords, but Proto-Aryan = Indo-Iranian loanwords began to appear even in Late Proto-Uralic; Proto-Iranian stage started about 1800 BC, and some Iranian loanwords have very western distribution (Finnic and/or Saamic). So even some of the Iranian loanwords might precede the Pre-Germanic loanwords. Iranian language was from early on spoken as near as in Upper Volga area, while Finnic and Saamic were born right northwest of it.
Arent there proto-Aryan words in Germanic languages? How old are they and how did they enter the Germanic languages?

[Jaska]

I say leave theorizing over the origin of ancient languages to people who know what they're talking about and publish in places a little more scholarly than some blog in a dark corner of the internet that reeks of Nordicism, ODESSA, and conspiracy theories.
Done.


This is what interests me, what other things, assuming they are not linguistic? Cultural and linguistic diffusion reveals no concrete evidences, what I know off.
They are linguistic; all the relevant arguments are listed here:
http://www.sgr.fi/susa/92/hakkinen.pdf


Is there a new culture emerging in the area 4000 years ago? I'm not aware of any such which can be connected to the "arrival" of Uralic speakers from Volga but there maybe evidences of an arrival from the Baltics during that time but that is connected to a northwest European cultural sphere.
There is a fitting culture almost in every time-depth in prehistory almost for everything: there are more cultures than linguistic expansions. We just have to find out which of them fits to certain linguistic expansion. For example, Seima-Turbino phenomenon fits well with the Uralic expansion about 4 000 years ago (read the link above).


I assume that with pre you mean fi.kanta and not pre as in an earlier, non (proto)-Germanic language?
Proto means 'kanta', pre means 'earlier than proto', but I mean by it the same lineage (between Proto-Indo-European and Proto-Germanic). Unfortunately it is also used to referring to the earlier languages of other lineages of the same area: the language preceding Germanic in particular area.


Arent there proto-Aryan words in Germanic languages? How old are they and how did they enter the Germanic languages?
I'm not aware of any old Aryan loanwords in Germanic. There may be some later wanderwords from Iranian.

[Erik]

Does anybody know Juergen Udolph's theory? According to him the Germanic languages
originated in the so called Jastorf culture area, south of Hamburg-Westphalia-the Elbe
Area till Thuringia. And not in Scandinavia. His theory has been based on an investigation
of places- and rivernames in Scandinavia and Germany.

[Jaska]

Does anybody know Juergen Udolph's theory? According to him the Germanic languages
originated in the so called Jastorf culture area, south of Hamburg-Westphalia-the Elbe
Area till Thuringia. And not in Scandinavia. His theory has been based on an investigation
of places- and rivernames in Scandinavia and Germany.
The Germanic area must have spread to the coastal Scandinavia very early, at the Bronze Age, because of the continuous contacts with Finnic and Saamic. Interestingly, there are less loanwords between Germanic and Baltic than between Germanic and the above mentioned Uralic branches. And as there are hundreds of old Baltic loanwords in Finnic, it seems that Germanic and Baltic were not spoken very close to each other...

[Motörhead Remember Me]

The Germanic area must have spread to the coastal Scandinavia very early, at the Bronze Age, because of the continuous contacts with Finnic and Saamic. Interestingly, there are less loanwords between Germanic and Baltic than between Germanic and the above mentioned Uralic branches. And as there are hundreds of old Baltic loanwords in Finnic, it seems that Germanic and Baltic were not spoken very close to each other...

Well, that's obvius since speakers of Finnic languages were nestled in between these two languages.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

They are linguistic; all the relevant arguments are listed here:
http://www.sgr.fi/susa/92/hakkinen.pdf


For example, Seima-Turbino phenomenon fits well with the Uralic expansion about 4 000 years ago (read the link above).



Your reasoning is sound and has strong arguments.

When Uralic speakers were reached by the Seima Turbino metallurgy technology, it enabled them the to "conquer" new lands?

[Jaska]

Your reasoning is sound and has strong arguments.

When Uralic speakers were reached by the Seima Turbino metallurgy technology, it enabled them the to "conquer" new lands?
It's hard to tell what the actual mechanism of the language spread was.
J. P. Mallory presented ten years ago a model in which the Proto-Uralic speakers of southern edge of forest belt adopted some new socio-hierarchical system from the steppe Aryans, with whom they had contacts. Then the Uralic speakers would have took advantage of the more "primitive" and scattered forest-dwellers. They were rich and seem to have had a monopoly in the bronze trade, and such a prestige is one factor causing language shift among the aboriginals (due to the intermarriages).

Conquest is also possible, or some kind of violent action. The Seima-Turbino traders have everywhere lived among the aboriginals, they had no settlements of their own. Either they gave very valuable gifts, or they forced the aboriginals to support them... maybe we will never know.


Well, that's obvius since speakers of Finnic languages were nestled in between these two languages.
At least we can say, that the Jastorf culture as a core Germanic area does not fit very well with the fact we see in the numbers of mutual loanword layers. The geographic shape may well be that of T, where the left end is Germanic, the lower end is Baltic, the right end is Saamic and the crossroad is Finnic.

[Albion]

Interesting site. I'll have a look at it.