please classify me - "wife of my husband"

[abcd]

hi everybody,

please classify me.

height: 158 cm
weight: 56 kg

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/6511/pic1bq.jpg

http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/4106/pic0if.jpg

http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/856/pic2x.jpg

http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/35/pic6fm.jpg

http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/3936/pic4o.jpg

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/3702/pic3tg.jpg

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/7855/picef.jpg

thanks and good luck ;)

[Blossom]

I dont know..




Good luck!

[Raikaswinþs]

you look like an over tanned brit, or a summer-time southern spaniard. I go for the "brit" one tho. Something in your face

[Blossom]

you look like an over tanned brit, or a summer-time southern spaniard. I go for the "brit" one tho. Something in your face

Spaniard? No. Either British.

[Thorum]

North African + Native American + Mid-Eastern = Non-European

[Lithium]

You don't look European.

[Fortis in Arduis]

Oooh, not sure, but maybe some South American indigenous ancestry.

Not within the British phenotype. :shrug:

[StonyArabia]

You looks Amerindian mixed with Caucasoid. I don't see Middle Eastern or North African. Some Berbers do indeed look Mongoloidish and are olive to brown skinned, who live in the Atlas mountains pretty much isolated from everyone else, so a genetic flow is very non-existent probably represent the early North African type. But in reality she does not look like them at all. No Saharid or Berberid.

Middle Eastern I don't see Arabid, Iranid, Armenoid

I would say Amerindian mixed with a Caucasoid probably Atlanto-Med. Some where from Latin America.

[Gamera]

Well, you wouldn't look out of place where I'm from.

[Turkophagos]

Europid-Amerind mix.

Chilean?

[Eldritch]

Your husband's wife is definitely not European as the term is commonly understood.

But you don't look Amerindian to me either, not particularly. In pics 2 and 3 you look more like a gitana.

[Germanicus]

My first thought is of South America..Columbia, Venezuala?

[Blossom]

Your husband's wife is definitely not European as the term is commonly understood.

But you don't look Amerindian to me either, not particularly. In pics 2 and 3 you look more like a gitana.

I would agree with you. The eyes shape lips and skin..is not that Amerindian..either a pure Paki. But gypsies mixed with the europeans..that's why they're still not that indian dark. I would also place her in Turkey..

[Ibericus]

you look like an over tanned brit, or a summer-time southern spaniard. I go for the "brit" one tho. Something in your face
southern spaniard :eek: ? Not at all. To me she looks like he has maybe some gypsy ?? definately not european..

[Aramis]

Gypsies, the white nightmare. Anyone who doesn't look fully european, must be gypsy.

[Blossom]

Gypsies, the white nightmare. Anyone who doesn't look fully european, must be gypsy.

that's not true and you know it well. She asked for classification so people tell their opinion. So what? Is there a problem if they see something gypsie on her?

[Don]

I'm agree with eldritch, you have a gitana look... but there is maybe something more in there... I don't discard the amerindian blood.
Intriguing face indeed.
Thanks for sharing.

[Raikaswinþs]

she doesn´t look extremely exotic to me. At least not more than these :

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_RxOESG1dvXM/SAUvGr8uXVI/AAAAAAAAAaY/RiMpPfQhtrw/s400/Cani_bizco.jpg

http://sp6.fotolog.com/photo/6/39/63/arturik0h_h4l/1291899505110_f.jpg

[StonyArabia]

She does not look like an ethnic Turk or a Kurd for that matter. Not the typical one. She clearly has Mongoloid influence and that Mongoloid influence is mostly Amerindian not old world Mongoloid. Amerindians tend to be very dark some of them are even darker than the people of India, with the exception to the South this is especially true of Southern America. She does not look a Gypsy at all, but rather an Amerindian altered by Atlanto-Med. Hence why people said she is Spainard or a tanned British, this because of the Atlantid element mixed with Amerindian.

Some Turks can show Mongoloid influence but they are never that dark. Also they tend to look more Central Asian.

[Blossom]

she doesn´t look extremely exotic to me. At least not more than these :

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_RxOESG1dvXM/SAUvGr8uXVI/AAAAAAAAAaY/RiMpPfQhtrw/s400/Cani_bizco.jpg


http://sp6.fotolog.com/photo/6/39/63/arturik0h_h4l/1291899505110_f.jpg

the first one is a "campechano hortero" and the second pic ..I can only see 1weird guy, the rest all fine between southerns :) ...but she's different. Way different. She got that gitana vibes with the asian ones..maybe amerindian (not sure)..in any case, she wouldnt pass as a typical southern EUROPEAN..

[Aramis]

that's not true and you know it well. She asked for classification so people tell their opinion. So what?

Is there a problem if they see something gypsie on her?

Their opinion starts to become void after a few threads. Noone posts his picture to get insulted. Besides, there are other non-european groups, not just Gypsies. Why don't just say Indian (or Dravidian) instead? If your observational skills and knowledge are on the level of a six year old, why bother to post at all?

I noticed this trend by a few members, used even when classifiying fellow Europeans and/or compatriots, i.e. those with a rather unusual or darker appearance. "Hell, look at his eyes and skin, he must be gypsy fo'shoo!"

But sorry, I just get irritaed by little things too easily.

[Raikaswinþs]

the first one is a "campechano hortero" and the second pic ..I can only see 1weird guy, the rest all fine between southerns :) ...but she's different. Way different. She got that gitana vibes with the asian ones..maybe amerindian (not sure)..in any case, she wouldnt pass as a typical southern EUROPEAN..

only a weird guy... that is such a compliment to him..

and i hope most southerners don´t consider these guys to be "fine" among them

[Eldritch]

Well, I for one don't claim that all people who don't look (fully) European look like Gypsies -- I only claim that people who look like Gypsies, to me, look like Gypsies.

[Blossom]

Their opinion starts to become void after a few threads. Noone posts his picture to get insulted. Besides, there are other non-european groups, not just Gypsies. Why don't just say Indian (or Dravidian) instead? If your observational skills and knowledge are on the level of a six year old, why bother to post at all?

I noticed this trend by a few members, used even when classifiying fellow Europeans and/or compatriots, i.e. those with a rather unusual or darker appearance. "Hell, look at his eyes and skin, he must be gypsy fo'shoo!"


But sorry, I just get irritaed by little things too easily.


well..I wouldnt say Indian cuz of her skin. She's not that dark as Indians. I said gypsie or maybe amerindian..cuz I saw gypsies woman looking like her. Amerindian aswell..but anyway, lets see if we guess. Its just an opinion, a right for everyone..so no need to get frustrated or irritated at all.

[Blossom]

only a weird guy... that is such a compliment to him..

and i hope most southerners don´t consider these guys to be "fine" among them

well Ojan..I saw plenty of those "canis" in Spain..and tanned people. Being tanned and ugly doesnt make you a "not normal southerner" or a "gypsie" ;)
and yes there are 3 whitenough guys :)

[Don]

Gypsies, the white nightmare. Anyone who doesn't look fully european, must be gypsy.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_bkB-b9TqZkc/S_vyFqbVUzI/AAAAAAAABXA/4eIPgIPB7wQ/s1600/lost+season+1.png

[Raikaswinþs]

well Ojan..I saw plenty of those "canis" in Spain..and tanned people. Being tanned and ugly doesnt make you a "not normal southerner" or a "gypsie" ;)
and yes there are 3 whitenough guys :)

not acording to Burgos Purity Law they don´t.:D

LIMPIEZA DE SANGRE! - Don, The Apricity Hidalgo-

[Nurzat]

i guess this way would look a mongoloid-negroid-caucasoid mix in someone

but seems hard to get, so i say you're turkish or something, of west asian alpine and east mediterranean admixture, bearing some turanid influence as well

[Aramis]

Well, I for one don't claim that all people who don't look (fully) European look like Gypsies -- I only claim that people who look like Gypsies, to me, look like Gypsies.

This isn't just about abcd, but countless of threads depicting south (eastern) Europeans, who to the educated (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sarcasm) eye of some nordicist and frustrated swarthies look, surprisingly, always gypsy.


Ah, just forget it. ;)

[Blossom]

not acording to Burgos Purity Law they don´t.:D

LIMPIEZA DE SANGRE! - Don, The Apricity Hidalgo-

whatever...Limpieza de sangre or not..there are aliens in Spain aswell as the weird "cani" you showed..and a lot. In any case we're going offtopic (as ever) and I personally dont like it or want it. So lets stop with the spanish "canis" or whatever :) gracias.

[Don]

I will ever respect someone who is posting his or her face and sharing it with me. If I enter into conflict with someone is because their words.

My opinion about a gypsy look (or probably some admixture propper of spanish america) in her is totally innocuous and sincere.

The mere fact of showing here her face carries me to show her my respect.

[Aramis]

I will ever respect someone who is posting his or her face and sharing it with me. If I enter into conflict with someone is because their words.

My opinion about a gypsy look (or probably some admixture propper of spanish america) in her is totally innocuous and sincere.

The mere fact of showing here her face carries me to respect her in a first moment.

I wasn't referring to you. In fact, I haven't read anywhere you using that discribtion for her.

[Lábaru]

Eastern gypsy, Rumania, Bulgaria or similar or perhaps Slovenia or a more central European, but with lot of gypsy influence.

[StonyArabia]

Some Gypsies often have false Amerindian look interestingly. Though she looks mostly Latin American to me though.

[Lábaru]

Some Gypsies often have false Amerindian look interestingly. Though she looks mostly Latin American to me though.


In the case of Native American, would be North America, Canada, but I still think it is more likely gypsy.

[The Journeyman]

I see traits of Mediterranean + Alpino-Berid or perhaps Alpino-Berberid.

I met a woman who looked much like you. At first glance, I thought she may have been of mixed Brazilian ancestry, but in fact it turned out that she was pure Sicilian. But there are Sicilians that are descended from various Mediterranean peoples.

[Sturmgewehr]

Asian Alpine-Mediterranid, there could be some Amerindian in you but I am not so sure

[Gamera]

Some Gypsies often have false Amerindian look interestingly. Though she looks mostly Latin American to me though.

That is true, I've noticed some Gypsies often look like plenty amerindians here or mestizos... so I'm not so sure about her having Amerindian admixture. I guess it could be both indeed.

[Aemma]

This isn't just about abcd, but countless of threads depicting south (eastern) Europeans, who to the educated (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sarcasm) eye of some nordicist and frustrated swarthies look, surprisingly, always gypsy.


Ah, just forget it. ;)

No let's not forget it. I think you bring up a very good and important point and one that needs to be revisited, like now. :)

EDIT: Ok well as I already told you in the thread with respect to your hubby's pics abcd, I quite suck at this classification thing but I do have a few words to offer. Firstly you're beautiful! :) And, like Don, I appreciate and respect anybody who has the guts to post their pic for a classification. So hats off to you! :)

Ok, as for classification, hmm your facial structure kind of puts me in mind of a Catherine Zeta-Jones actually. :) Overall I seem to get a Trinidad and Tobago vibe. Could it be? Are you from the Caribbean at all? Or my other best guess: you are a Métis Canadian? :shrug: :)

[Bloodeagle]

I have met some Tahitian- French/Polynesian/Indian and Hawaiian's - Portuguese/Polynesian, who resemble her. :confused:

[demiirel]

Maybe some "dark Amerindian" blood, or some Arab/North African or Indian/Pakistani blood. Northern Old World Mongoloids look paler and more delicately feminine.

But ignoring the dark skin, you could pass for a Spaniard or Azerbaijani.


But in this photo you look darker than Spaniards and Azerbaijanis (poor lighting?):

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/6511/pic1bq.jpg

[StonyArabia]

Maybe some "dark Amerindian" blood, or some Arab/North African or Indian/Pakistani blood. Northern Old World Mongoloids look paler and more delicately feminine.

Arabs and North Africans usually don't have Mongoloid features and they certainly don't look Amerindian. Even the Mongoloidish type Berbers who are found in the Atlas mountains, the purest Berbers to date, don't look like her. They lack Mongoloid admixture for the most part. She does not look like Southern Mongoloid or Northern Mongoloid but rather New World Mongoloid. Pakistani and Indians depending on the ethnic group might indeed have Mongoloid phenotype mixed with dark Caucasoid elements creating a false Amerindian.


But ignoring the dark skin, you could pass for a Spaniard or Azerbaijani.

Spainard not at all, but an Azeri she could pas but even then not really


But in this photo you look darker than Spaniards and Azerbaijanis (poor lighting?):


Azeris are not that dark, and Spainards are not either. The only exotic Spainards often look more North African and such are found in the Canary Islands or it's North African enclaves. This not all Canarian show their North African past, but it appears from time to time. As the Iberian genes clearly dominated their genome. She simply look Amerindian but could be from India or there abouts as well. She could easily pass as mixed race Native American in most of North America. I believe she is mixture of Atlantid-Amerindian.

[demiirel]

What makes you see her as having Mongoloid features?

[demiirel]

She may look Amerindian, but it's only because she has all the non-Mongoloid features of the Amerindians, like semi-European nose and eyes.

[Gaztelu]

But ignoring the dark skin, you could pass for a Spaniard or Azerbaijani.



Another ignorant foreigner who has never neen to Spain . . .

[Lábaru]

In order of probability.

1º Eastern European gypsy.

2º North amerindian with some european blood.

3º British Pakistani

4º Australian aborigen+european blood

[demiirel]

Another ignorant foreigner who has never neen to Spain . . .

We don't want to start "that" again now do we?

[Gaztelu]

We don't want to start "that" again now do we?

No, we don't. Please keep your ignorant comments to yourself.

[Blossom]

Hey guys, look what I've found. This girl is Kurdish (from Kurdistan), her name is Helan. (She's a singer from Finland, well she's kurdish living in Finland, though now she's in USA)

Can you see the seemed features? I DO CAN.

4kZ8MNg3lsU

http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/115/l_73a8ee438f7a43b9a1ac135e1159ff87.jpg

http://a4.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/100/807a6dc0d3494366b57b367de87afe9b/l.jpg

http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/122/l_9c55556dddbc4330be825d839ec31aaa.jpg

http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/116/l_0a5e650f5dd049a9a7ede9165df9283e.jpg

http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/152/l_47495bc7c2464195b3e790cdffa99536.jpg

http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/120/l_cf752a9d33dee4e74996b63ad9a6ce99.jpg

So same.

[Don]

The Following User Says Thank You to demiirel For This Useful Post: Aemma

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_LBWeWYUtugg/TTHRQl6ZvzI/AAAAAAAAAcE/JRCCkgcMaps/s1600/confundido_1.png

[Aramis]

In order of probability.

1º Eastern European gypsy.

Let me paraphrase a line from one of your dear Spaniards:

"Another ignorant foreigner who has never been to eastern Europe".

This is the common eastern European Gypsy woman:

http://img.youtube.com/vi/Q8ZM0BmOrY0/0.jpg

Please, just keep bitching around about others being ignorant towards Spain, while you isolated your mind from anything beyond a long time ago. Amusing behavior. :wink

[Blossom]

Let me paraphrase a line from one of your dear Spaniards:

"Another ignorant foreigner who has never been to eastern Europe".

This is the common eastern European Gypsy woman:

http://img.youtube.com/vi/Q8ZM0BmOrY0/0.jpg

Please, just keep bitching around about others being ignorant towards Spain, while you isolated your mind from anything beyond a long time ago. Amusing behavior. :wink

Aramis, gypsie look can have a great variety. And I've been to Eastern Europe :).

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_LQw9cxMF2nQ/S8yW3o_C70I/AAAAAAAAAlM/JzMyNM5MEzE/s1600/tiganca.JPG

http://wapedia.mobi/thumb/9ac5499/en/fixed/282/451/Tiganca_imputita.JPG?format=jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1266/4674841021_d410cb94ec.jpg

:)..If their opinion is that she looks gypsie, then you should respect it. Everyone got his/her own reasons to think whatever they think, maybe they shared the reasons, maybe not. All I say is that to me, this girl who posted her pics here in order to be classified looks kurdish or gypsie or...'maybe' amerindian, though I'm not sure. That is MY opinion. That's why opinions are free to be shared.

[Lábaru]

Let me paraphrase a line from one of your dear Spaniards:

"Another ignorant foreigner who has never been to eastern Europe".

This is the common eastern European Gypsy woman:

http://img.youtube.com/vi/Q8ZM0BmOrY0/0.jpg

Please, just keep bitching around about others being ignorant towards Spain, while you isolated your mind from anything beyond a long time ago. Amusing behavior. :wink

You fail, I have to deal with hundreds of Eastern Gypsies each day.

http://noticias.terra.es/genteycultura/2009/0830/fotos-media/la-crisis-baja-el-precio-de-la-novia-gitana-en-bulgaria-a-500-euros$304x228.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_uUD54l6H3Io/TFG4xaIS_VI/AAAAAAAABt4/MYlthJfTAG0/s400/Gitana+expulsada.jpg

http://questiondigital.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/gitanos-ni%C3%B1os.jpg

http://www.zexe.net/LEON/canales/igual/imagen/imagen214.jpg

http://blogs.periodistadigital.com/imgs/20071022/rumanos_gitanos.jpg

[Aramis]

Aramis, gypsie look can have a great variety. And I've been to Eastern Europe :).

And why is that so? :lightbul:

That isn't the point anyway. As far as I am concerned, abcd could have Gypsy ancestry all the way down to the stone age.


You fail, I have to deal with hundreds of Eastern Gypsies each day.

Compare this (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_uUD54l6H3Io/TFG4xaIS_VI/AAAAAAAABt4/MYlthJfTAG0/s400/Gitana+expulsada.jpg), to that (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=344865&postcount=1). Where's the similarity? Their tan? Laughable.

Your actions here are fueled by sheer arrogance and ignorance, and yet you get medieval towards any forgeniers not used to differenciate Spaniards from middle easterns and Gypsies.

[Blossom]

And why is that so? :lightbul:

Compare this (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_uUD54l6H3Io/TFG4xaIS_VI/AAAAAAAABt4/MYlthJfTAG0/s400/Gitana+expulsada.jpg), to that (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=344865&postcount=1). Where's the similarity? Their tan? Laughable.

Imagine abcd as a white white woman. Does that fit to you? I'll show you and example on Photoshop. No, it doesnt fit. Her features are like so. She is dark to some of us, at least to me. My skin is pinkish white (actually) and she is dark to me. I dont know about you. Its not about ''compare'' its about features.

[Lábaru]

A

Your actions here are fueled by sheer arrogance and ignorance, and yet you get medieval towards any forgeniers not used to differenciate Spaniards from middle easterns and Gypsies.

Relax Aramis, I do not understand your anger.

This photo makes me think that she can be a gypsy frm easter or center Europe.


http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/7855/picef.jpg


But I said four possibilities.


In order of probability.

1º Eastern European gypsy.

2º North amerindian with some european blood.

3º British Pakistani

4º Australian aborigen+european blood

[Aramis]

Relax Aramis, I do not understand your anger.

This photo makes me think that she can be a gypsy frm easter or center Europe.


http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/7855/picef.jpg


But I said four possibilities.

She looks like an over tanned Yugo, or rather a Turk, on this particular photo to me. But ok I'll relax ;)

[Blossom]

Yugo classy girl! :D :P
http://imagecache6.allposters.com/LRG/38/3865/993JF00Z.jpg

[abcd]

wooowwww...what a feedback! :eek:

please do not quarrel, it is no problem for me being guessed as whatever else.

after you have listed all possible ethnic groups in which i might belong to, i want to disclose the secret.

i am turkish - some members had guessed right. :D

i was born near izmir about 100km inland. my both parents are turkish too.
my mother ist "light", typical turkish in contrast to my father who is a "dark" turk with very few mongolian (genghis khan) influences.

[Blossom]

wooowwww...what a feedback! :eek:

please do not quarrel, it is no problem for me being guessed as whatever else.

after you have listed all possible ethnic groups in which i might belong to, i want to disclose the secret.

i am turkish - some members had guessed right. :D

i was born near izmir about 100km inland. my both parents are turkish too.
my mother ist "light", typical turkish in contrast to my father who is a "dark" turk with very few mongolian (genghis khan) influences.

Me the first on guessing:cool:I feel good.:thumbs up

[Blossom]

I would agree with you. The eyes shape lips and skin..is not that Amerindian..either a pure Paki. But gypsies mixed with the europeans..that's why they're still not that indian dark. I would also place her in Turkey..

:cool:

[Guapo]

very exotic and attractive, that's for sure.

[abcd]

not bad...really ;)

most people i meet guess me to be from latin america

[Blossom]

not bad...really ;)

most people i meet guess me to be from latin america

Well to my eyes, I wouldnt have placed you there (S. America), as I didnt. You have the turkish look.:thumbs up

[Don Brick]

Where is Agrippa when you need him? Wish he´d just already come over and properly classify her because the half a dozen last pages have pretty much been full of nothing but crap and speculations... :coffee:

[Guapo]

Turkish? At first I thought you were part Hungarian due to your features.

[Blossom]

Turkish? At first I thought you were part Hungarian due to your features.

Oh, Guapo...Hungarian?...Man, Atilla and his huns are gone.:wink

[Saruman]

Mediterranoid, + Cromagno-Alpinoid influence, I can't see Armenoid traits. Mongoloid? Hardly. Mainly heavy tan gives "exotic vibe". Because I can't see traits of typical near eastern types like Arabid etc. Tan like this(and darker) is more common among Indids. Mediterranoid for sure, whether over-tanned or maybe Indid influence, Anadolid?(Armeno-Mediterranid), Agrippa should give his input. :confused:

[Blossom]

Some Taurid+(Alpinoid)+ slight Mediterranoid+Cromagnoid, I would say..

[StonyArabia]

Some Turks are Turkified Gypsies. Those are common through out Anatolia. Some Turks are also Turkifed Arabs but those usually live in the South West and those usually have no Mongoloid features. On the contrary the Gypsies would. As many Eastern European Gypsies have false Amerindian look or similarity.

She is atypical for Turkey or the stereotypical Turk, I believe it was her Indid strains mixed with a Turanid elements that created this false Amerindian look. In fact she can easily pass as a Canadian Metis. Many of whom range from Amerindian looking to European but most are in between. The Indid Caucasoid created almost of a false illusion of Atlantid which was admixed with a Turanid element.

The Kurdish girl posted is clearly Indid or leans to that type. If you mix her with a Turanid element the result would indeed be similar.

[Lábaru]

i am turkish - some members had guessed right. :D

i was born near izmir about 100km inland. my both parents are turkish too.
my mother ist "light", typical turkish in contrast to my father who is a "dark" turk with very few mongolian (genghis khan) influences.

Interesting, but tell me, you have gypsy blood? or your pigmentation and traits are normal in your area?

[abcd]

Interesting, but tell me, you have gypsy blood? or your pigmentation and traits are normal in your area?

gypsy blood...not to my knowledge.
my pigmentation is darker compared to my 2 sisters. only my brother has nearly the same skin color.

i am the oldest child of 4, second born was my brother.

maybe my two younger and lighter sisters got germanized because of being born in germany. ;)

[Nurzat]

quoting myself:

i say you're turkish or something, of west asian alpine and east mediterranean admixture, bearing some turanid influence as well

now, do i get anything for right guessing such a hard one?

[abcd]

quoting myself:

i say you're turkish or something, of west asian alpine and east mediterranean admixture, bearing some turanid influence as well

now, do i get anything for right guessing such a hard one?

of course......a virtual kiss and my respect ! :icon_cheesygrin:

[Nurzat]

it's more than i was waiting for. thank you. warm greetings from romania

[Allenson]

most people i meet guess me to be from latin america

You certainly bear a resemblence to some people from Central & South America.

My guess was going to be central Asian--Kazakh or something along those lines. I reckon some Turkish blood came from that part of the world...

[Blossom]

quoting myself:

i say you're turkish or something, of west asian alpine and east mediterranean admixture, bearing some turanid influence as well

now, do i get anything for right guessing such a hard one?

Well I was the first one ;) so sorry..:D just have a look at the first page. But well...I wouldnt like to get kissed by a woman, so I give that part of prize to you!:laugh:

[Nurzat]

haha, i missed that, sorry, i was on page 4 :) ok, it was anyway my first shot. you're nice

[CelticTemplar]

While I may not be very good at taxonomy I am able to tell you that you are probably South American.

[Aramis]

While I may not be very good at taxonomy I am able to tell you that you are probably South American.

There must be some serious Turkish-Amerindian connection. Are you sure Iberians were the first over there?

[abcd]

Hi community,

our (my german husband´s) grandmother died 6 months ago after we nursed her at home for two years. The last months were very exhausting and sad and our marriage was really put to the test. :cry

From our grandma we got many old documents and fotos. We also have documents from my husband´s grandfather who was Leutnant in the 1. Gebirgsdivision (Edelweiß). His military career lasts 12 years until he was captured in Austria by the "Rote Armee" and has to go in very hard captivity. He never was part of the NSDAP, just a brave soldier. He sadly died in 1998.

As long as our grandparents lived they treated me like their own grand-child without any racial prejudice. Of course they both grew up in the "Nazi-Regime" of the "3. Reich" with all the "Untermenschentum".
I really loved them and they loved me too.

Now i do some ancestry research because i want to learn something about my husband´s ancestors and mine too. Along the way it was interesting being ethnically classified. So i found the "Apricity Forum". For classification i want to thank you all.

After reading through the "Apricity Forum" i found out that this forum sadly is just another racist-board.
I am sure that this forum is not the platform i want to belong to. I am not a racist and in your opinion no european or "white person" anyway.

My husband and i have to deal with dumb racist people in Germany and if you ever hear such words like "Die Ausländerschlampe würde ich auch mal DURCHFICKEN!!!" than you can feel about "Rassenhass". I guess you only will understand my point of view if you ever were in situations like this.

I know little about "Rassenlehre" but i believe any human "race" is coequal and has its good and bad characteristics. "Heimat" and affiliation is were you settled down and feel at home. You should look at every person as an individuum and mankind should help each other everywhere.

Therefore i say goodby

[Arne]

Hi community,

our (my german husband´s) grandmother died 6 months ago after we nursed her at home for two years. The last months were very exhausting and sad and our marriage was really put to the test. :cry

From our grandma we got many old documents and fotos. We also have documents from my husband´s grandfather who was Leutnant in the 1. Gebirgsdivision (Edelweiß). His military career lasts 12 years until he was captured in Austria by the "Rote Armee" and has to go in very hard captivity. He never was part of the NSDAP, just a brave soldier. He sadly died in 1998.

As long as our grandparents lived they treated me like their own grand-child without any racial prejudice. Of course they both grew up in the "Nazi-Regime" of the "3. Reich" with all the "Untermenschentum".
I really loved them and they loved me too.

Now i do some ancestry research because i want to learn something about my husband´s ancestors and mine too. Along the way it was interesting being ethnically classified. So i found the "Apricity Forum". For classification i want to thank you all.

After reading through the "Apricity Forum" i found out that this forum sadly is just another racist-board.
I am sure that this forum is not the platform i want to belong to. I am not a racist and in your opinion no european or "white person" anyway.

My husband and i have to deal with dumb racist people in Germany and if you ever hear such words like "Die Ausländerschlampe würde ich auch mal DURCHFICKEN!!!" than you can feel about "Rassenhass". I guess you only will understand my point of view if you ever were in situations like this.

I know little about "Rassenlehre" but i believe any human "race" is coequal and has its good and bad characteristics. "Heimat" and affiliation is were you settled down and feel at home. You should look at every person as an individuum and mankind should help each other everywhere.

Therefore i say goodby
Your Words appear as fully Crap to me, to be honest.

[Ushtari]

Hi community,

our (my german husband´s) grandmother died 6 months ago after we nursed her at home for two years. The last months were very exhausting and sad and our marriage was really put to the test. :cry

From our grandma we got many old documents and fotos. We also have documents from my husband´s grandfather who was Leutnant in the 1. Gebirgsdivision (Edelweiß). His military career lasts 12 years until he was captured in Austria by the "Rote Armee" and has to go in very hard captivity. He never was part of the NSDAP, just a brave soldier. He sadly died in 1998.

As long as our grandparents lived they treated me like their own grand-child without any racial prejudice. Of course they both grew up in the "Nazi-Regime" of the "3. Reich" with all the "Untermenschentum".
I really loved them and they loved me too.

Now i do some ancestry research because i want to learn something about my husband´s ancestors and mine too. Along the way it was interesting being ethnically classified. So i found the "Apricity Forum". For classification i want to thank you all.

After reading through the "Apricity Forum" i found out that this forum sadly is just another racist-board.
I am sure that this forum is not the platform i want to belong to. I am not a racist and in your opinion no european or "white person" anyway.

My husband and i have to deal with dumb racist people in Germany and if you ever hear such words like "Die Ausländerschlampe würde ich auch mal DURCHFICKEN!!!" than you can feel about "Rassenhass". I guess you only will understand my point of view if you ever were in situations like this.

I know little about "Rassenlehre" but i believe any human "race" is coequal and has its good and bad characteristics. "Heimat" and affiliation is were you settled down and feel at home. You should look at every person as an individuum and mankind should help each other everywhere.

Therefore i say goodby
anthrocivitas.net

this is the forum you are looking for

[Eldritch]

After reading through the "Apricity Forum" i found out that this forum sadly is just another racist-board.

I am sure that this forum is not the platform i want to belong to. I am not a racist and in your opinion no european or "white person" anyway.

No offense, but I think you should have done a bit of looking around the forum before you joined and asked for a classification.

I have no desire to argue about this, and you probably feel the same way, but I want to point out that "racism" is these days a pretty meaningless concept.



My husband and i have to deal with dumb racist people in Germany and if you ever hear such words like "Die Ausländerschlampe würde ich auch mal DURCHFICKEN!!!" than you can feel about "Rassenhass". I guess you only will understand my point of view if you ever were in situations like this.

I know little about "Rassenlehre" but i believe any human "race" is coequal and has its good and bad characteristics. "Heimat" and affiliation is were you settled down and feel at home. You should look at every person as an individuum and mankind should help each other everywhere.


I agree that it's important to regard each person as an individual, instead simply as a part of some easily pigeonholed group. Perhaps you'll even extend that courtesy to the evil racists on this forum?

All the same, you deserve credit for making what amounts to a fairly dignified exit, if you feel unwelcome here. Some can't manage even that.

[Lábaru]

Not is racism, it is survival.... although in this case I missed something?

[Fortis in Arduis]

^ yeah, exactly...

Ethnic identity and awareness = racism if it pertains to 'white' people.

Fuck off really.

[Aramis]

White guilt power! Have a happy tschuschn life.

[Gaztelu]

We apologize for not being sorry enough for you. Turks don't belong in Germany, or even Europe for that matter.

So, Güle Güle

[Pallantides]

If you're just after a classification, I think Anthropology Biodiversity Forum (ABF) or Anthrocivitas would suit you better. :)

[mymy]

If you're just after a classification, I think Anthropology Biodiversity Forum (ABF) or Anthrocivitas would suit you better. :)

I agree :)

I'm sorry that you didn't feel welcome here... I don't think people here are racists... Hope you will find better place for yourself then...

[Blossom]

Well. We are not being racist or evil. This Forum is mostly about European Preservation and all members got in mind that once they joined this Forum.

We are Europeans. The thing I do not understand is, being an European, and being called an ''immigrant''/''foreign'' in other European country. As you are european and you still in Europe you will never be an immigrant or foreign. This is Europe's land. True, a german will never be a spanish. That's blood. But never a immigrant. Europe's immigrants are people like you (I dont want to offend you and no one here) while you're not European.

I know we german, may have done some nasty things (as hippies say) and we have been involved to wars and so. But you see...maybe it was because we were fed up on watching our land like something transformed and strange to us. See our land operated by non-europeans. At least someone tried to fight against the instrusion. I'm not saying Hitler did all best. I'm saying that he fighted (in a sane or insane way). I dont care about the stereotypes they gave us, ...we know who we are and how we are.
I know this may be somehow offtopic, but just wanted to clear some things up. We should be welcome to every corner of our great Europe.

(WARNING: I'm talking just about Germany. I'm not saying that other countries are inferior, I'm either offending none of our european brothers.)

I'm not a ''racist''. I just personally think that our white skin and features and body, are more beautiful than the others. I also appreciate our culture and the preservation of this. As you would understand, this preservation is not possible while we're having outsiders. That is why we, members on this Forum (or at least some of them), are so 'frustrated' about non-europeans presence.

I hopely you'll be as welcomed as you deserve to, on some other kind of Forum.:)

[Comte Arnau]

Well. We are not being racist or evil. This Forum is mostly about European Preservation and all members got in mind that once they joined this Forum.

We are Europeans. The thing I do not understand is, being an European, and being called an ''immigrant''/''foreign'' in other European country. As you are european and you still in Europe you will never be an immigrant or foreign. This is Europe's land. True, a german will never be a spanish. That's blood. But never a immigrant. Europe's immigrants are people like you (I dont want to offend you and no one here) while you're not European.

I know we german, may have done some nasty things (as hippies say) and we have been involved to wars and so. But you see...maybe it was because we were fed up on watching our land like something transformed and strange to us. See our land operated by non-europeans. At least someone tried to fight against the instrusion. I'm not saying Hitler did all best. I'm saying that he fighted (in a sane or insane way). I dont care about the stereotypes they gave us, ...we know who we are and how we are.
I know this may be somehow offtopic, but just wanted to clear some things up. We should be welcome to every corner of our great Europe.

(WARNING: I'm talking just about Germany. I'm not saying that other countries are inferior, I'm either offending none of our european brothers.)

I'm not a ''racist''. I just personally think that our white skin and features and body, are more beautiful than the others. I also appreciate our culture and the preservation of this. As you would understand, this preservation is not possible while we're having outsiders. That is why we, members on this Forum (or at least some of them), are so 'frustrated' about non-europeans presence.

I hopely you'll be as welcomed as you deserve to, on some other kind of Forum.:)

And where does European stop? In the map line that separates a border town in Bulgaria from the neighbor town in European Turkey? In the bridge that joins European Istambul from Asian Istambul?

[Ibericus]

And where does European stop? In the map line that separates a border town in Bulgaria from the neighbor town in European Turkey? In the bridge that joins European Istambul from Asian Istambul?
The turks living there are not natives. Before the Ottoman invasion there were only bulgarian natives in what is now european Turkey.

[Sikeliot]

If we aren't going to consider Turkish people European, a great many Eastern Europeans (especially Russians and Finns) shouldn't be either because they have just as much Asian ancestry as Turks do (even if Russia is technically part of Europe).

I'm not saying we should consider Turks European but if we aren't going to because they have some Asian admixture, consider how many Eastern Europeans do too.

[Comte Arnau]

The turks living there are not natives. Before the Ottoman invasion there were only bulgarian natives in what is now european Turkey.

You mean then that you consider Thracian Turks European? What about Constantinople?

[Ibericus]

If we aren't going to consider Turkish people European, a great many Eastern Europeans (especially Russians and Finns) shouldn't be either because they have just as much Asian ancestry as Turks do (even if Russia is technically part of Europe).
But Turks not only have mongoloid admixture, but largely Semitic, they do not cluster genetically with any europeans :

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5092/europedec82010.png

[Comte Arnau]

But Turks not only have mongoloid admixture, but largely Semitic, they do not cluster genetically with any europeans :

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5092/europedec82010.png

Since when Georgians or Adygs are Mongoloid or Semitic? :confused:

[Sikeliot]

But Turks not only have mongoloid admixture, but largely Semitic, they do not cluster genetically with any europeans :

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5092/europedec82010.png


That is a good point.
But by that token, since S. Italians, Greeks, and Cypriots cluster with Ashkenazis, this group is somewhat of an intermediate between other Europeans and Semites, so should they all be considered European?

It gets difficult to define. There are two approaches; count everything in European borders (that didn't immigrate recently from elsewhere) as European, or get picky and fussy and make distinctions, which IMO should be applied across the board.

[Ibericus]

You mean then that you consider Thracian Turks European? What about Constantinople?
Constantinople was inhabitated by greek and roman colonialists, some ostrogoths, plus the natives of that zone (bulgarian tribes, northern greeks) there were no ethnic turks. In fact, they were enemies.

[Guapo]

What does a guy have to do to get a virtual blow job around here?

[Ibericus]

Since when Georgians or Adygs are Mongoloid or Semitic? :confused:
Who says Georgians or Adygs are mongloid or semitic ?


That is a good point.
But by that token, since S. Italians, Greeks, and Cypriots cluster with Ashkenazis, this group is somewhat of an intermediate between other Europeans and Semites, so should they all be considered European?
But South Italians/Greeks cluster also with Tuscans who in turn cluster with North Italians, and so on, like a chain, so yes. While Turks are isolated from the rest of euros.

[Comte Arnau]

I think you'll finish earlier by saying it's simply a matter of religion, not of genetics or language.

The thing is, while it's true that most Turks are Muslim, not all of them are, and the country is in theory secular.

[Sikeliot]

Who says Georgians or Adygs are mongloid or semitic ?


But South Italians/Greeks cluster also with Tuscans who in turn cluster with North Italians, etc so yes.


So are Ashkenazi Jews European, since their ratio of Semitic/European is similar to that of a South Italian or Greek?

[Ibericus]

So are Ashkenazi Jews European, since their ratio of Semitic/European is similar to that of a South Italian or Greek?
No, they are not, because they are not natives of Europe.

[Ibericus]

I think you'll finish earlier by saying it's simply a matter of religion, not of genetics or language.

The thing is, while it's true that most Turks are Muslim, not all of them are, and the country is in theory secular.
Actually yes, it's not because of genetics that I don't consider them european. I was just answering to the statement that russians or finns should be considered the same as Turks because of the mong admix. They not only have mongoloid , but also semitic, iranian, persian, etc ancestry.

[Comte Arnau]

Who says Georgians or Adygs are mongloid or semitic ?


Why then you say Turks have Mongoloid and Semitic admixture and exemplify this with a pic in which the closest to them are Georgians and Adygs? :confused:

[Sikeliot]

No, they are not, because they are not natives of Europe.

Then how are S. Italians and Greeks natives of Europe? For them to cluster with Ashkenazis means a significant portion of their genes had to come from the Middle East (which they did), be it during the Neolithic or later. Obviously what we're talking about is a matter of time period, since Ashkenazis came to Europe far later than the Middle Eastern portion of the above mentioned groups did.

I'm not arguing to exclude these people from Europe either but if they're accepted as full European, genetic ancestry can no longer be the criteria for who is European or who's not, lest we start to include more groups.

[Comte Arnau]

Actually yes, it's not because of genetics that I don't consider them european.

And you apply the same rule to Albanians and Bosniacs?

[demiirel]

wooowwww...what a feedback! :eek:

please do not quarrel, it is no problem for me being guessed as whatever else.

after you have listed all possible ethnic groups in which i might belong to, i want to disclose the secret.

i am turkish - some members had guessed right. :D

i was born near izmir about 100km inland. my both parents are turkish too.
my mother ist "light", typical turkish in contrast to my father who is a "dark" turk with very few mongolian (genghis khan) influences.

So you're saying your father is dark because he has some Mongolian Genghis Khan influences?

This is how normal Mongol skin looks:

http://cache.virtualtourist.com/1338329-Mongolian_Fashion_Show_in_Wemmel-Wemmel.jpg

But your skin looked somewhat smoky. Much darker than the Mongol norm.

Mongols may look brown when tanned. The pinkish-white skinned Mongols don't tan. But no Mongol looks smoky or charcoal-like.

This is a heavily tanned Mongol girl. Notice how she's not smoky:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/39/96520528_795797ce00_z.jpg?zz=1

It is quite possible that you have Genghis Khan blood, since Mongols ruled Turkey before the Ottomans. But how can you prove it? Does your father have written genealogies?

I think your smokiness comes from Negroid influence transmitted via dark Arab or Greek ancestors. It would never come from Mongol ancestry. Mongols are a "Nordic" people by the standards of their own sphere, meaning they are a distant northern people completely cut off from Negroid influence.

[Sikeliot]

Essentially if genetics are the basis for considering people European or not, the following groups should be excluded: Russians (amongst other Slavic groups), Finns, S. Italians, Sicilians, Maltese, Greeks, and a number of other Balkan ethnicities.

If culture and religion, Bosnia and Albania are excluded.

So the only way to keep all of Europe reasonably "European" is to forget genes AND culture and religion and just consider everything born within Europe (that didn't recently immigrate) European.

[Ibericus]

Why then you say Turks have Mongoloid and Semitic admixture and exemplify this with a pic in which the closest to them are Georgians and Adygs? :confused:
I didn't post the map to show their mong or semitic admix, in fact that map is not about admixture but only the relative position on a genetic map, for example a half spanish-half finnish person would plot in the Germanic area yet he has not germanic ancestry. I posted the map only to show that Turks are isolated from the rest of Europeans. But anyways Georgians have also iranid, Turkic and semitic admixture, maybe not any mongoloid like turks, but they are ethnically close to Turks

[Guapo]

All this turk talk is making me hungary.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_oW9mFkVnCM4/TO2zjh3X2_I/AAAAAAAAATU/8_uL0p9GTHk/s1600/thanksgiving+dinner.jpg

[StonyArabia]

Georgians do have Iranid admixture, and you can find Iranic strains all the way to the Northern Caucasus. But Semitic admixture is very far fetched. There is also minor Indian/Dravidian admix in Georgians mostly found in their mtDNA it amounted to nothing. They are Caucasians nothing more and nothing less. Georgians are close to Turks because many of them assimilated to the Turkish ethnicity, it does not mean they mixed with them. Most Turks are Anatolian in origins similar to the people of the Caucasus genetically.

Adyge don't have Semitic admixture, but some Indian and probably Iranic admixture. Again they are for the most part what they are Caucasians nothing more and nothing less.

As for Turks. Turkey is large land. Ethnic Turks are basically Greeks for the most part who shifted their language to Turkic in recent years and some Mongol element.

Southern Turks who live in the SouthWest are for the most part Turkified Arabs and those in the South East are Turkified Kurds and Assyrians. The Semitic/Iranic admixture is found in the Southern regions of Turkey. Most them became Turks in recent years.

[Comte Arnau]

I posted the map only to show that Turks are isolated from the rest of Europeans. But anyways Georgians have also iranid, Turkic and semitic admixture, maybe not any mongoloid like turks, but they are ethnically close to Turks

It's not as if you have samples from anyone there. I can't see Bulgarians, btw. And something tells me there's a big difference between Aegean Turks and inland Anatolian ones.

And Georgians may be genetically close to Turks, but ethnically? Are you mistaking Georgians with Azeris?

[Saruman]

But Turks not only have mongoloid admixture, but largely Semitic, they do not cluster genetically with any europeans :

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5092/europedec82010.png

The reason why Ashkenazim cluster there with Greeks, South Italians, Cypriots might be that since they are usually a mix of Near easterners and rather central/northern Europeans as these two "cancel" each other they end up being near those groups, as of course genetically North Euros are more distant to Near easterners than South Euros.

Turks do have Near eastern admixture, do you have data about mongoloid because from the phenotypes that I looked at of some Turks, near eastern admixture was obvious in majority, yet far more common than mongoloid. Also it is not visible from that sample which ones are western or eastern Turks, near eastern element is more present on the east than west.

Yet if speaking about "Europeanness" of certain groups, borders are not always clear but then come in cultural differences into play as well...

[Sikeliot]

The reason why Ashkenazim cluster there with Greeks, South Italians, Cypriots might be that since they are usually a mix of Near easterners and rather central/northern Europeans as these two "cancel" each other they end up being near those groups, as of course genetically North Euros are more distant to Near easterners than South Euros.

It's because South Italians, Greeks, and Cypriots have significant Anatolian and/or Levantine admixture.

[Ibericus]

Then how are S. Italians and Greeks natives of Europe? For them to cluster with Ashkenazis means a significant portion of their genes had to come from the Middle East (which they did), be it during the Neolithic or later. Obviously what we're talking about is a matter of time period, since Ashkenazis came to Europe far later than the Middle Eastern portion of the above mentioned groups did.

I'm not arguing to exclude these people from Europe either but if they're accepted as full European, genetic ancestry can no longer be the criteria for who is European or who's not, lest we start to include more groups.
Because south italians and greeks have been the same in their lands since neolithic times, while Ashkenazies is a recent product of mixing. Plus, culturaly, linguistacally, religiously they are not European, and they don't even consider themselves european.



And you apply the same rule to Albanians and Bosniacs?
Albanian and Bosnian natives are ethnic europeans yes, that have been invaded by Ottomans and imposed Islam as their religion. We should eliminate islam from that region of Europe.


Essentially if genetics are the basis for considering people European or not, the following groups should be excluded: Russians (amongst other Slavic groups), Finns, S. Italians, Sicilians, Maltese, Greeks, and a number of other Balkan ethnicities.
I don't understand you, care to explain ? All of these are natives to european land, they are european.


If culture and religion, Bosnia and Albania are excluded.
Well, their culture is also balkanic. Their religion is not. But they are ethnic balkans. It's a matter of eliminating Islam and problem solved.


So the only way to keep all of Europe reasonably "European" is to forget genes AND culture and religion and just consider everything born within Europe (that didn't recently immigrate) European.
And why not ALL of these things at the same time ?

[Saruman]

It's because South Italians, Greeks, and Cypriots have significant Anatolian and/or Levantine admixture.

No, slight possibly, depends on cases and areas, but my reasoning is far more plausible. If you were correct, near eastern elements present among those groups would have pushed them genetically significantly closer to Near easterners than they are.

[Sikeliot]

Because south italians and greeks have been the same in their lands since neolithic times, while Ashkenazies is a recent product of mixing. Plus, culturaly, linguistacally, religiously they are not European, and they don't even consider themselves european.

So then you established it's not necessarily due to genetics that you consider people European or not. Ok.



I don't understand you, care to explain ? All of these are natives to european land, they are european.

Those groups all have extra-European admixture. Russians, Finns, Hungarians, and many Slavs have measurable Mongoloid ancestry, while S. Italians and Greeks have West Asian/Levantine. But you've established that genetics are not necessarily what determines if you're "European" or not, so this doesn't matter.


Well, their culture is also balkanic. Their religion is not. But they are ethnic balkans. It's a matter of eliminating Islam and problem solved.

So if religion and genetics (evidenced by the things you've said) are not the determining factor necessarily, why couldn't Turks be European?

[Guapo]

Y-DNA studies are not interesting anymore : Western Europe is mostly R1b, you don't get much from that.

[Comte Arnau]

Albanian and Bosnian natives are ethnic europeans yes, that have been invaded by Ottomans and imposed Islam as their religion. We should eliminate islam from that region of Europe.


You could apply that argument to Thracia and ancient Greek Anatolia all the same then.

[Ibericus]

It's not as if you have samples from anyone there. I can't see Bulgarians, btw. And something tells me there's a big difference between Aegean Turks and inland Anatolian ones.

And Georgians may be genetically close to Turks, but ethnically? Are you mistaking Georgians with Azeris?
Bulgarians are close to other Balkans, see these other plot :

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/SgPtrXOvDUI/AAAAAAAABbo/mDAK-MpRf9k/s1600/journal. pone.0005472.s007.jpg

[Ibericus]

You could apply that argument to Thracia and ancient Greek Anatolia all the same then.
Yes, I know western anatolia has large greek ancestry, but today they are far from being ethnic greeks.

[Comte Arnau]

Bulgarians are close to other Balkans, see these other plot :

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/SgPtrXOvDUI/AAAAAAAABbo/mDAK-MpRf9k/s1600/journal. pone.0005472.s007.jpg

It'd have been cool to see Turks in this one. To see if they are more isolated from the Euroblock than Finns are.

[Sikeliot]

If Finns cluster so far away from other European groups, should they be considered European?

[Ibericus]

It'd have been cool to see Turks in this one. To see if they are more isolated from the Euroblock than Finns are.
See these other one it has Balkans with bulgarians included, here Turks are even more separated, Finns are not :

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TR8ox_MI6qI/AAAAAAAADIE/zEcyBpR0U8s/s1600/MDS1600.png

[demiirel]

Because south italians and greeks have been the same in their lands since neolithic times, while Ashkenazies is a recent product of mixing. Plus, culturaly, linguistacally, religiously they are not European, and they don't even consider themselves european.


A key idea there. To be European you have to have lived in some one or other European land since the Neolithic. The Neolithic. Sounds reasonable.

Jews have been constantly present in Europe for 2000 years, but because they haven't lived in Europe since the Neolithic, they are not Europeans. Plus, their culture was born outside of Europe.

Finno-Ugric peoples can be said to be European, since the Uralic languages have been spoken west of the Ural Mountains (also east as well) since the Neolithic.

What about Turco-Mongols? They are at least not as distant as the Jews. I think it is wrong to think that T-M presence starts in Europe in 370 AD and continues non-stop for 1641 years till the present, making us younger than the Jews in Europe.

It would be more accurate to see Turco-Mongols as being closely connected to IEs and very closely connected to Uralic peoples (almost the same). Turco-Mongols would have had intercourse with Europe since Neolithic times, being connected with the Ural mountains and the Eurasian Steppe, and actually living in far-eastern Europe since the Neolithic. Turco-Mongol religion and culture was pretty much the same as the PIE religion and culture. The Turco-Mongol language is much closer to IE and Uralic than Semitic is. So it's kind of like a Trinity: IE, Uralic and Turco-Mongol.

As for genes, have Mongoloid genes been in Europe since the Neolithic? I think so yes.

[Blossom]

If we aren't going to consider Turkish people European, a great many Eastern Europeans (especially Russians and Finns) shouldn't be either because they have just as much Asian ancestry as Turks do (even if Russia is technically part of Europe).

I'm not saying we should consider Turks European but if we aren't going to because they have some Asian admixture, consider how many Eastern Europeans do too.

Oh please.

[Ibericus]

If Finns cluster so far away from other European groups, should they be considered European?
Depenends on the finnish sample. The ones from Kuusamo have some lappish ancestry, while the ones from Helsinki tend to cluster towards the swedes and baltics.

[Sikeliot]

See these other one it has Balkans with bulgarians included, here Turks are even more separated, Finns are not :

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TR8ox_MI6qI/AAAAAAAADIE/zEcyBpR0U8s/s1600/MDS1600.png


That's also interesting because it shows Greeks as clustering between Tuscans and South Italians, and all of them far from the Middle East (although closer to them than other Europeans are).

I can accept the Neolithic as the cut-off for the time period, that sounds reasonable. ;)

And btw Lithuanians clustering with Finns makes sense if you look at their haplogroup frequencies.

[Comte Arnau]

See these other one it has Balkans with bulgarians included, here Turks are even more separated, Finns are not :

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TR8ox_MI6qI/AAAAAAAADIE/zEcyBpR0U8s/s1600/MDS1600.png

Interesting. A bit weird that Finns looks so far in one graph and so close in another.

What do the D's stand for? Diaspora?

[Blossom]

Well you cant compare Finland and Turkey, on who's more european..please.

[Ibericus]

Interesting. A bit weird that Finns looks so far in one graph and so close in another.

What do the D's stand for? Diaspora?
The D means from people participating in the Dodecad Project. As for the Finns, like I said, it depends on the samples. The ones from Kuusamo have some lappish ancestry, because it's the north of Finland, while the ones from Helisinki are closer to Balts and Swedes.

[The Ripper]

The D means from people participating in the Dodecad Project. As for the Finns, like I said, it depends on the samples. The ones from Kuusamo have some lappish ancestry, because it's the north of Finland, while the ones from Helisinki are closer to Balts and Swedes.

I doubt it has much to do with Lappish ancestry, but rather genetic isolation, founder's effect, etc. Eastern and Western Finns are genetically more distant from each other than Brits and Germans, for example. This has to do with the settlement history and small founding populations.