Transylvanian Saxons

[d3cimat3d]

http://s004.radikal.ru/i205/1002/c4/4d05be4b96f8.jpg

http://www.siebenbuerger.de/medien/fotos/sachsentreffen-birthaelm-2009/grossbilder/dsc_0221.jpg

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http://www.siebenbuerger.de/medien/fotos/sachsentreffen-birthaelm-2009/grossbilder/dsc_0236.jpg

[d3cimat3d]

http://www.siebenbuerger.de/medien/fotos/sachsentreffen-birthaelm-2009/grossbilder/dsc_0237.jpg

http://www.siebenbuerger.de/medien/fotos/sachsentreffen-birthaelm-2009/grossbilder/dsc_0238.jpg

http://www.siebenbuerger.de/medien/fotos/sachsentreffen-birthaelm-2009/grossbilder/dsc_0239.jpg

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http://www.siebenbuerger.de/medien/fotos/sachsentreffen-birthaelm-2009/grossbilder/dsc_0285.jpg

[aherne]

As I've mentioned in a previous post, at some early point in their history, Transylvanian Saxons mixed with Romanians so that the majority is indistinguishable from Romanians. Germanic exceptions do exist, but when I've attended a meeting with other Romanian Germans (they have an organization here for their "rights"), I was not so surprised to discover I was the most German looking (even though I'm anything but a pure German and I'm not THAT German looking like Schwarzenegger, for ex.).

[Agrippa]

They look like Southern Germans-Austrians for the most part, with regional differences which are quite noticeable.

Also you have to consider, that many of the Transylvanian Saxons already left the region, and today many are affected by recent mixture with Romanians and Hungarians.

Looking at a picture like this:

http://www.siebenbuerger.de/medien/fotos/sachsentreffen-birthaelm-2009/grossbilder/dsc_0239.jpg

This could be a group of people from everywhere in Southern Germany-Austria and beyond in German lands.

[aherne]

Also you have to consider, that many of the Transylvanian Saxons already left the region, and today many are affected by recent mixture with Romanians and Hungarians.


I judge based on what I see. Also, since all my German members of my family looked German (hence I also look mostly German), I have a similar expectation whenever I see "ethnic Germans": certainly I don't expect them to look like Romanians, because Germans don't generally look like Romanians. The fact most do proves they are mixed. In the post-war period, there was much official jewish-communist hatred of Germans, not just during a period when they were partly deported into Arctic Russia (includes, of course, members of my family), but even after Stalinist era, when official propaganda continuously associated Germans with Hitler and, to a lesser extent, Holocaust. As a result, most Germans gradually left (into a country where they were even less free than during communism), others mixed with Romanians (like my family), others changed their names (like my family). In the end, what remained after last wave of immigration were assimilated individuals and people of mixed ancestry.

Despite anti-German propaganda during communism and semitism ("democracy"), Romanians have always had positive things to say about Germans, hence absolutely no opposition to mixed marriages.

Here is how real Germans should look like (Klaus Johannis, an obvious Transylvanian Saxon):
http://www.klausjohannis.ro/pics/klausJohannis2.jpg

[Loddfafner]

When I visited some of the old Saxon towns in Transylvania, a noticeable portion of the population stood out as German in appearance, especially in Hermannstadt.

[Agrippa]

I judge based on what I see. Also, since all my German members of my family looked German (hence I also look mostly German), I have a similar expectation whenever I see "ethnic Germans": certainly I don't expect them to look like Romanians, because Germans don't generally look like Romanians.

a) there is an overlap of certain phenotypes between Germans and Romanians
b) you seem to go primarily by pigmentation, which is, especially in this matters, wrong.

Because there are dark variants which look very German and light ones which look very Romanian.


The fact most do proves they are mixed. In the post-war period, there was much official jewish-communist hatred of Germans, not just during a period when they were partly deported into Arctic Russia (includes, of course, members of my family), but even after Stalinist era, when official propaganda continuously associated Germans with Hitler and, to a lesser extent, Holocaust. As a result, most Germans gradually left (into a country where they were even less free than during communism), others mixed with Romanians (like my family), others changed their names (like my family). In the end, what remained after last wave of immigration were assimilated individuals and people of mixed ancestry.

Fact is however, this has little to do with Transylvanian Saxons as such, because if they mixed later, one can distinguish them from the original ones.

Also, the admixture seems to have been not that big, but more genetic studies might show it.


Here is how real Germans should look like (Klaus Johannis, an obvious Transylvanian Saxon):
http://www.klausjohannis.ro/pics/klausJohannis2.jpg

Note that you said "should look like" - well, fact is, many age-old Germans don't, not even all Scandinavians look that typically Germanic and still they are.

Günther Oettinger is a German from Germany, no known admixture, yet he looks more Romanian and foreign than most of the Transylvanian Saxons shown:

https://www.da-imnetz.de/bilder/2009/07/21/418021/809359039-guenther-oettinger.9.jpg

Yet many of these Transylvanian Saxon ancestors seem to have come from Western Europe (French, Walloons and Flemings f.e.), but the vast majority from North Western Germany, some from Southern and Eastern Germany too though.

So darker elements were present from the start and a wider variety of types as well, so how can you know for sure, without genetic tests, which can be attributed to later admixture and what not?

Some names can help, because some last names often point to foreign heritage, like "Szekeli" points to Szekler ancestry of some remote ancestor in many Transylvanian Saxons.

Otherwise only genetic tests can make it sure or really extreme traits probably, which would stick out everywhere in Germany as totally out of place and that is rare among them and in the last pictures provided too...

Many people talk about Germany and Germans, but have little experiences with them.

[Karl der Große]

I can not see them as Germans, seriously

[Arne]

Bavarians look like this
http://www.muenchenblogger.de/files/images/kneissl-11.preview.jpg
Aherne you look nothing German.

[Jarl]

I can not see them as Germans, seriously

Keep up the fire!

[Karl der Große]

Here is how real Germans should look like (Klaus Johannis, an obvious Transylvanian Saxon):
http://www.klausjohannis.ro/pics/klausJohannis2.jpg

Is he really representative of Transylvanian Saxons? Give me a group of 10 Transylvanian Saxon men with at least 4 similar to him.

[Karl der Große]

Keep up the fire!

Since 1990, ethnic Germans living in Estern Europe have increased by ten their numbers since those of 80 :D if I accepted each with 1 / 4 or 1 / 16 German so, then we should change the concept of ethnic Germans from today.

Those people should be totally proud of who they are in a broad ethnocultural aspect, but they should not forget that they are historical part of Romania.

[Loddfafner]

I should admit that when this topic came up on another forum, my first impulse was to imagine "Transylvanian Saxon" as a killer Halloween costume that would also serve as gear for a metal show. I think that is the normal American response, so on some level I might be a normal American. Once I saw pictures of the cities they built, though, I had to make the effort to go see them and highly recommend anyone contemplating a European excursion to consider this neglected corner of the continent. The Dracula cliches do not do it justice. In between those fortified German towns, what you see out the train window is straight out of Breughel.

[aherne]

[QUOTE=Agrippa;426991]
Günther Oettinger is a German from Germany, no known admixture, yet he looks more Romanian and foreign than most of the Transylvanian Saxons shown:/QUOTE]

He looks hyper-Romanian (resembles Ceausescu), perhaps Albanian, perhaps Aromanian, perhaps Yugoslavian, but certainly NOT German.

Please take into consideration that German ancestry is not an issue of shame as in Western Europe, but one of pride here in Romania. People of mixed ancestry, especially those who know German, will consider themselves German. As a result of that, very few look German. Considering they mostly came from Palatinate, where Germanic-looking people have very high concentration, isn't it a bit odd these "Saxons" would look out of place there?

Here is a picture of Transylvanian Saxons during the inter-war period (before recent large scale admixture):
http://www.dhm.de/ausstellungen/bildberichterstatterin/10.jpg
^ Guys are scando-nordid, woman is faelid. These people would be instantly recognized as German.

[aherne]

Aherne you look nothing German.

I think you have an inferiority complex...

[Agrippa]

Since 1990, ethnic Germans living in Estern Europe have increased by ten their numbers since those of 80 :D if I accepted each with 1 / 4 or 1 / 16 German so, then we should change the concept of ethnic Germans from today.

Those people should be totally proud of who they are in a broad ethnocultural aspect, but they should not forget that they are historical part of Romania.

Transylvanian Saxons were "part of Romania" just since the 20th century and even that, partly, with interrupts.

So actually they were always, since they settled there, a German community living in the Austrian/Hungarian monarchy.

If you want to make them part of something, then better Austria or Hungary therefore, rather than Romania. Romania in a geographical sense yes, but otherwise it is like saying to an East Prussian or that they were a historical part of Russia or Poland...

Better read up some history books first :thumb001:


Please take into consideration that German ancestry is not an issue of shame as in Western Europe, but one of pride here in Romania. People of mixed ancestry, especially those who know German, will consider themselves German. As a result of that, very few look German. Considering they mostly came from Palatinate, where Germanic-looking people have very high concentration, isn't it a bit odd these "Saxons" would look out of place there?

The Transylvanian Saxons always defined themselves, since reformation, as Protestant. How many of those mixed are now Lutherans?

I would wonder if too many of the mixed ones really kept up the Protestant traditions in an overwhelmingly different environment.

[Arne]

Please take into consideration that German ancestry is not an issue of shame as in Western Europe, but one of pride here in Romania. People of mixed ancestry, especially those who know German, will consider themselves German. As a result of that, very few look German. Considering they mostly came from Palatinate, where Germanic-looking people have very high concentration, isn't it a bit odd these "Saxons" would look out of place there?

Here is a picture of Transylvanian Saxons during the inter-war period (before recent large scale admixture):
^ Guys are scando-nordid, woman is faelid. These people would be instantly recognized as German.
People whose Ancestry is only partly German would have a hard time fitting in.
Everyone with the tiniest piece of German tries to be fully German.

Those People can never considered as Germans by any Logic.
So sad only some are pure.
Buy you don´t belong to.

They should ashamed of theirselves to pretend to be German!

[Blossom]

People whose Ancestry is only partly German would have a hard time fitting in.
Everyone with the tiniest piece of German tries to be fully German.

Those People can never considered as Germans by any Logic.
So sad only some are pure.
Buy you don´t belong to.

They should ashamed of theirselves to pretend to be German!

Seriously, you're lame. :) Dont offend but...at least try to learn something more about other countries, travel and so before you're 60, and then get the guts to talk about it. I simply cant believe how someone can be this ignorant.

I've been there and from the pictures you once sent me to classify you cuz you were afraid to upload them on the Forum, SOME of them look more german than you do, sorry.

[aherne]

The Transylvanian Saxons always defined themselves, since reformation, as Protestant. How many of those mixed are now Lutherans?

I would wonder if too many of the mixed ones really kept up the Protestant traditions in an overwhelmingly different environment.


All Transylvanian Saxons were Evangelicals. Because pastors were strongly against inter-confessional marriages, my impression is that nearly all children in mixed unions have been baptized Orthodox and habitually speak Romanian. That many consider themselves German is tribute to Germans' high prestige among Romanian people.

[Arne]

Seriously, you're lame. :) Dont offend but...at least try to learn something more about other countries, travel and so before you're 60, and then get the guts to talk about it. I simply cant believe how someone can be this ignorant.

I've been there and from the pictures you once sent me to classify you cuz you were afraid to upload them on the Forum, SOME of them look more german than you do, sorry.

Your Judgement lacks of Evidence.
Truth to be told I look more Celtic/Teutonic ...
People without any Clue make me sick.

[Agrippa]

All Transylvanian Saxons were Evangelicals. Because pastors were strongly against inter-confessional marriages, my impression is that nearly all children in mixed unions have been baptized Orthodox and habitually speak Romanian. That many consider themselves German is tribute to Germans' high prestige among Romanian people.

I know that, so I guess they are just keeping up their mixed traditions, just looking for that part of their heritage as well, which is ok.

But obviously they can't be considered Transylvanian Saxon, if being both mixed and no Protestants, because that means they don't even follow the cultural tradition, especially if having another religious confession typical for the region, like orthodox, which always was a distinctive moment, since there were largely no Lutheran (A.B.) Romanians and no orthodox Germans.

Religion was a great part of the identity and this is also one of the reasons for so little mixture over time, since in areas where the people had the same religion, mixture was more common, for example Catholic Germans and Hungarians, Catholic Germans and Poles etc...

Don't call the confession Evangelical though, because that means something completely foreign to Europe and Germans in particular in the English language and shouldn't be confused with the German term "Evangelisch":


Evangelicalism is a Protestant Christian movement which began in Great Britain in the 1730s[1] and gained popularity in the United States during the series of Great Awakenings of the 18th and 19th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism

Most Germans, with some small minorities, are Lutherans (A.B.) if being Protestant, which is, or better was, before re-education after WW2, the only truly German Protestantism.

[Blossom]

Your Judgement lacks of Evidence.
Truth to be told I look more Celtic/Teutonic ...

:lol: ok Celti, ok...whatever.

[aherne]

I know that, so I guess they are just keeping up their mixed traditions, just looking for that part of their heritage as well, which is ok.

There are hardly any Germans left in Romania, so they are an almost invisible minority. The only compact area where they still form a majority is in a few villages near Nagykaroly (Carei).

[Daco Celtic]

They mixed with Romanians, that much is clear. I can't tell them apart from my Romanian grandparents. Perhaps the most south shifted Germanic people in the the world

[Aspirin]

They mixed with Romanians, that much is clear. I can't tell them apart from my Romanian grandparents. Perhaps the most south shifted Germanic people in the the world

They look very different from Romanians.