Can Europe Survive a Civil War in Greece?

[Crn Volk]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamespoulos/2012/05/07/can-europe-survive-a-civil-war-in-greece/

Can Europe Survive a Civil War in Greece?
Washington|5/07/2012 @ 12:57PM

http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jamespoulos/files/2012/05/greekcivilwar-198x300.jpg

Happy Monday. It’s time to think the unthinkable.

We all remember the upshot last time communists and fascists had to share a parliament, right? Conditions in Greece today are beginning to take on the eerie cast of Weimar Germany in its final years. It’s important to emphasize that what went wrong in Weimar had less to do with racial animosity or even economic meltdown, and more to do with a crisis of nationalism. With the Second Reich destroyed, what was Germany? What was it for? These existential questions are the same that face Greece, and the fresh electoral triumph of its far-left and far-right parties repeats the pattern of competing answers first put on display in ’20s and ’30s Germany.

Almost no one in Europe intuited that military action at that early stage could have prevented the cataclysm of the Second World War and the Holocaust. The open wounds of the First World War helped guarantee that. But now, the last war in Europe was confined to the former Yugoslavia, and the lessons of the past may sound a clearer warning. Greece’s problem is primarily political, not economic. With European politics and economics so closely knit together, however, chaos in Greece poses a double threat: first, to the peace and security of the continent; second, to the survival of the Euro and the EU itself. That threat will become much more than a threat if Greece slips into civil war. Though it’s too early to interpret that dire eventuality as a certainty, the West can’t plan for the worst too soon.

The tinderbox in Greece is devilishly simple: the military. Unlike most countries in Europe, Greece has an outsized military budget, and the armed forces to match. Where Spaniards, for instance, have little reason to worry that militarism will flow in as prosperity and opportunity ebb, Greeks have every reason to look to the military as a solution for the economic and political problems that neither German eyeshades nor parliamentary negotiations seem able to solve. But there’s simply no geopolitical space for Greek aggression, which means there’s no room for the age-old political strategy of whipping up national unity by starting a war. The US, for instance will stop at nothing to prevent a Greco-Turkish war. An altercation in Macedonia is conceivable, but Greek territorial aspirations have never reached farther north. Indeed, the real issue is that a civil war now appears far more likely in Greece than a war of aggression.

A Greek civil war, moreover, threatens the Euro and the EU more than any cross-border misadventure. The collapse of civil order is the specter that hangs over Europe’s constituent parts. Markets can survive and even thrive amidst nation-to-nation wars. Civil war in Greece will lay bare the full spectrum of questions Europe dreads facing most. Not only will a Greek meltdown touch off a media frenzy (Will Italy be next? Is Naziism back? Whither Hungary?). It will throw down a gauntlet before Europe. With market confidence and institutional legitimacy on the line, will the Europeans really stand idly by? Will they cross their fingers and hope for the best? Will Germany and France supply the Greek military, whomever’s in charge, with even more arms? Or will some European coalition of forces intervene, largely — if not entirely — without the benefit of American boots on the ground? (And don’t expect that American military technology will work wonders. The US is very good at taking out specific enemies from afar. It’s terrible at bringing order to chaos — as Libya, Pakistan, and Yemen show, just to name a few.)

Europe’s hand will be forced. The impulse will be to boot a warring Greece from the Euro, but even that drastic move will fail to establish a political or economic quarantine. German military intervention is an impossibility. Britons have no interest in repeating the debacle of the UK’s last Greek ordeal, which drove them to the edge of bankruptcy. Europe will never permit Russia or Turkey to take the lead on a Greek intervention.

Who then? There is only France. Can anyone envision Hollande sending the tricolor to Athens — even in the name of left solidarity?

The state of play in Europe is straightforward. Greece is very likely to become a failed state. Over the next five years, civil war is probable. The brute fact is that Greece has not succeeded in demonstrating that it can and should exist as a sovereign political entity. European anxiety, international markets, and the force of media-fueled public opinion ensure that neither the Euro nor the EU can survive an unanswered Greek implosion. And the only country in Europe that can lead a coalition capable of imposing order on the chaos to come is now led by a man for whom such leadership is deliriously out of character.

[Heart of Oak]

Who what's Euros, who needs the EU, no more of our boys dying on far away fields, nuke em all, an lets stop this b/s, who wants Greece anyway......

[cossackpride]

It's been the Greek's plan all along.

They'll fake a civil war (a few hundred dead), CNN will capture it all on film and it'll be an excuse to bring in 5-6 million Greeks.. primarily to Australia or New Zealand. :mad:

Get your own countres, WOGs. :mad:

[Crn Volk]

It's been the Greek's plan all along.

They'll fake a civil war (a few hundred dead), CNN will capture it all on film and it'll be an excuse to bring in 5-6 million Greeks.. primarily to Australia or New Zealand. :mad:

Get your own countres, WOGs. :mad:

Ukranians are considered Wogs in Australia too :wink

[Crn Volk]

Who what's Euros, who needs the EU, no more of our boys dying on far away fields, nuke em all, an lets stop this b/s, who wants Greece anyway......

Actually if westerners get the fuck out of the balkans, you'd do us all a favour. Take your fucking bondsteel with you, and leave the Balkan Christians deal with those pesky muslim minorities....:thumb001:

[Arne]

I think we can survive the bankrupt Greek State..

[Contra Mundum]

It's been the Greek's plan all along.

They'll fake a civil war (a few hundred dead), CNN will capture it all on film and it'll be an excuse to bring in 5-6 million Greeks.. primarily to Australia or New Zealand. :mad:

Get your own countres, WOGs. :mad:

At least they hate Muslims.

[Flintlocke]

I love these crazy threads by armchair politicians :D

[cossackpride]

Ukranians are considered Wogs in Australia too :wink

Nce trolling brah but you won't fool anyone.

Macedonian man wants to extend the Wog Club. Too bad for him Ukrainians are lighter complexion than Anglos. :)

[Petros Houhoulis]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamespoulos/2012/05/07/can-europe-survive-a-civil-war-in-greece/

Can Europe Survive a Civil War in Greece?
Washington|5/07/2012 @ 12:57PM

http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jamespoulos/files/2012/05/greekcivilwar-198x300.jpg

Happy Monday. It’s time to think the unthinkable...

Actually, there is no need to think at all. Bill Maher has done so for us quite a few years already:

fys3MsKMpms

WLZCzXWH4hc

The contents of this Forbes article are "For American eyes only". These are the folks who invaded Iraq for whatever reason, still consider Russia an enemy and fear of Ayatollahs' long beard (He might get nuclear bombs, but he won't be able to use them)

Yes, Europe can survive a civil war in Greece. It has survived the IRA's and ETA's actions so far with ease. It survived the Yugoslav wars as well. It still survives the Turks bloodshed of the Kurds and various European conflicts of all sorts...

...If I were them I would be more worried about the bloodshed south of their border in Mexico, which is a real civil war, and leave Greeces' rather peaceful conflicts alone...

[Wildland]

Civil war in Greece, that would be an Albo dream, and a start point for a larger Albania.
Any major instabilities in the Balkans will only lead to Albanian separatism.
Albanians from Kosovo area will pour into Macedonia and start a war, Albanians in northern Greece will take up arms and join up.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Who what's Euros, who needs the EU, no more of our boys dying on far away fields, nuke em all, an lets stop this b/s, who wants Greece anyway......

Neither the EU nor the Euros brought us where we are. Some fucking "liberals" moved all of our industries to South-East Asia, and this is where it all started. It won't be solved until Europe gets back its' industry, Euro or no Euro... EU or not EU...

The real question is who wants Britain. Although Sarkozy is gone, you are the ones moving out of the E.U., not Greece, and your premier Cameron is the one who shall be killing your boys in a far away land, not Greece:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2111307/Iran-trying-build-nuclear-missiles-capable-hitting-London-Cameron-warns-MPs.html


Iran trying to build nuclear missiles capable of hitting London, Cameron warns MPs
By Jason Groves
UPDATED: 13:50 GMT, 7 March 2012
...


Greece has been too peaceful during the last years. It has not been engaged in either the Yugoslav wars, or the Iraq war, minimal contribution to Afghanistan and no engagement in Libya either.

Nevertheless, Greek ships evacuated thousands of refugees and trapped westerners from Lebanon and Libya alike, and succeeded more than some other allies so far in other fronts:

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-02/27/c_13752750.htm


Chinese premier thanks Greece, Malta for help in Libya evacuation

It is not going to change anytime soon, and - trust me - the Brits shall keep visiting Greece far vacations, even if "You don't want us"...

...But maybe China does! Wait and see...

[Petros Houhoulis]

Civil war in Greece, that would be an Albo dream, and a start point for a larger Albania.
Any major instabilities in the Balkans will only lead to Albanian separatism.
Albanians from Kosovo area will pour into Macedonia and start a war, Albanians in northern Greece will take up arms and join up.

Albanians in Northern Greece?

How many? 10.000? 20.000?

They are all in Athens and in the islands dear... If you are looking for Albanians in Chameria...

[The Lawspeaker]

Of course we can: we aren't going to the battlefields and we can supplies (the Germans weapons) to both sides (making back at least some of the money that we have lost).

[Virtuous]

I'm not really against a united Europe.

I wish to see Europe united without forgetting cultures and erasing borders, without giving illegal immigrants same rights as a European, EU's problem is that they're more interested in money than the good of all European countries.It saddens me.

[Wildland]

Albanians in Northern Greece?

How many? 10.000? 20.000?

They are all in Athens and in the islands dear... If you are looking for Albanians in Chameria...

Never mind that, as a Greater Albania is supported by 60% of the population in Albania.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Of course we can: we aren't going to the battlefields and we can supplies (the Germans weapons) to both sides (making back at least some of the money that we have lost).

You have certainly no fear up there, even if there was a possiblility of a civil war.

BTW, even the U.S.Americans know that we have already enough weapons to start and finish a civil war. We are already armed to the teeth! Thanks, amongst others, to Germanyand the U.S. of A...

[Petros Houhoulis]

Never mind that, as a Greater Albania is supported by 60% of the population in Albania.

A Greater Albania is supported by 60% of the population in Albania, and 0% of the population in Greece.

Got that?

[Wildland]

A Greater Albania is supported by 60% of the population in Albania, and 0% of the population in Greece.

Got that?

Is it? Then you must have a very good assimilation policy.
Yet the arms are not in Greece or Macedonia, they are in Kosovo and Albania.
Something tells me the route of the arms will make it into Greece quite easy.

[Onur]

There was a reason of why Morea (current central Greece) was called as "Sanjak of Arnaut" for about ~400 years. Same as Chameria for today`s northwestern Greece.

It`s rather ironic that Albanians totally forgot this fact today but looking for "Greater Albania" dreams in Macedonia, Kosovo, Serbia.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Is it? Then you must have a very good assimilation policy.
Yet the arms are not in Greece or Macedonia, they are in Kosovo and Albania.
Something tells me the route of the arms will make it into Greece quite easy.

Do you actually suggest that the Albanians have more arms than the Greek army?

Anyway, when was the last time that an Albanian separatist attacked a target in Greece? Something like... WWII under the support of the Italian Fascists?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cham_Albanians#Political_positions


The Greek government on the other hand considers the Cham issue as a closed chapter. According to the Greek official position, the Chams would not be allowed to return to Greece because they have collaborated with the Italian-German invaders during the Second World War, and as such they are war criminals and are punished according to Greek laws.[2] In an attempt to give a solution, in 1992 Prime Minister Konstantinos Mitsotakis proposed a trade-off in relation to their properties, only for the cases where their owners had certifiably not been convicted or participated in crimes against their fellow Greek citizens. Mitsotakis also proposed that the Albanian government likewise compensate ethnic Greeks who had lost properties due to alleged persecution during the communist regime in Albania.[56] This proposal however was rejected by the Albanian side.

The "Cham Issue" is not been in the agenda of international organizations.[3] Since 1991, delegates of the Cham community have begun an attempt to internationalize the "Cham Issue", but the only official support for this issue has come from Turkey.[2] Meanwhile, in 2006, Members of the Party of Justice and Integration met European MEPs, including the chairwoman of Southwest Europe Committee on the European Parliament, Doris Pack and introduced their concerns about the Cham Issue. Although this group of MEPs drafted a resolution about this issue, it was never put to a vote.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_Army_of_Chameria


Liberation Army of Chameria (LAC, Albanian: Ushtria Çlirimtare e Çamërisë, UÇÇ) is a reported paramilitary formation in the northern Greek region of Epirus.[1][2][3][4][5] The organisation is reportedly linked to the Kosovo Liberation Army and the National Liberation Army, both ethnic Albanian paramilitary organisations in Serbia and the Republic of Macedonia respectively.

In 2001, a video[6] was released on the internet showing conceiled members of the UCC, the leader "Mehmeti" said that the Liberation Army would form in southern Albania/Epirus, to defend the ethnic Albanians who had "no rights": "circa 1 million Albanians in Northwestern Greece - Chameria, live without any rights, the UCC will be their legitimate representative.".[7]

When president Bush visited Tirana on June 10, 2007, a delegation of the UCC on delivered a letter with nationalist requests. UCC delegations delivered letters to the US embassies in Rome and Tirana.[1]

As of 2001, the Greek police reported that the group consisted of approximately 30-40 Albanians. It does not have the official support of the Albanian government.[8]

I am really surprised that they were more than enough to assemble a football team at 2001. I am sure they are no more at 2012...

[Petros Houhoulis]

There was a reason of why Morea (current central Greece) was called as "Sanjak of Arnaut" for about ~400 years. Same as Chameria for today`s northwestern Greece.

It`s rather ironic that Albanians totally forgot this fact today but looking for "Greater Albania" dreams in Macedonia, Kosovo, Serbia.

Sanmjak of Arnaut! Ha Ha Ha

Called by whom?

The Sanjaks were too small dear to include all of the Peloponesse. In any case, here are the facts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_divisions_of_the_Ottoman_Empire

Show me the "Sanjak of Arnaut" dear!

HA HA HA HA HA

[The Lawspeaker]

You have certainly no fear up there, even if there was a possiblility of a civil war.

BTW, even the U.S.Americans know that we have already enough weapons to start and finish a civil war. We are already armed to the teeth! Thanks, amongst others, to Germanyand the U.S. of A...
Do you recognise cynicism when you read it ? Not even Greeks are so stupid to start a civil war.

[alb0zfinest]

Albanians in Northern Greece?

How many? 10.000? 20.000?

They are all in Athens and in the islands dear... If you are looking for Albanians in Chameria...

The chams wouldn't assimilate to Greek society so you expelled/forced them out.

[Queen B]

Another wishfull-thinking thread.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Do you recognise cynicism when you read it ? Not even Greeks are so stupid to start a civil war.

They are trying to level the field. They are enjoying a conflict, so they dream that Greece gets one. This is not even revanchism, this is...

...No, I'll get banned if I say that.

[Petros Houhoulis]

The chams wouldn't assimilate to Greek society so you expelled/forced them out.

The Christian Chams did assimilate. The Muslim Chams did not assimilate.

Well, what happened is that they got their own medicine after the Muslim dominated Ottoman empire left them, and this pissed them off to the point of collaborating with the Italians during the WWII without much effect, but we were too pissed off at anything Muslim by then anyway... Thus they gave us a measly pretext to be kicked out of the country and we used it.

[alb0zfinest]

The Christian Chams did assimilate. The Muslim Chams did not assimilate.

Well, what happened is that they got their own medicine after the Muslim dominated Ottoman empire left them, and this pissed them off to the point of collaborating with the Italians during the WWII without much effect, but we were too pissed off at anything Muslim by then anyway... Thus they gave us a measly pretext to be kicked out of the country and we used it.

Not really. Chams whether muslim or christian remained together, the only Albanians to assimilate with Greeks were with Arvanites, and most of that was forcefull assimilation.
killing innocent civilians simply because they were muslim, not far from typical Greeks.

[Contra Mundum]

If Greece does have a civil war, I hope the anti-immigrant nationalists come out on top.

[Onur]

but we were too pissed off at anything Muslim by then anyway... Thus they gave us a measly pretext to be kicked out of the country and we used it.
German Nazis and Italian fascists used deliberate starving policy upon your people. Around half a million of them died by starving AND YET you pissed off to muslims because of that?

Do you also blame Turks if you get bitten by a mosquito in Aegean islands?

[Petros Houhoulis]

Not really. Chams whether muslim or christian remained together, the only Albanians to assimilate with Greeks were with Arvanites, and most of that was forcefull assimilation.
killing innocent civilians simply because they were muslim, not far from typical Greeks.

Can you actually provide sources proving the killing of "innocent Cham civilians" outside of propagandistic Albanian websites?

If any, they took place during the WWII... If...

[Petros Houhoulis]

German Nazis and Italian fascists used deliberate starving policy upon your people. Around half a million of them died by starving AND YET you pissed off to muslims because of that?

Do you also blame Turks if you get bitten by a mosquito in Aegean islands?

The Albanians collaborated with the Italians in all fronts.

Even in far away places...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balli_Komb%C3%ABtar


Despite the Ballist's hatred of communism, they feared that the Allied victory in the war might well result in communist control of Albania [6]. Their lukewarm attitude towards the British was also fostered by their desire to preserve the accomplished fact of ethnic frontiers of the Albanian State restored by the Italians in 1941, for they bitterly opposed and dreaded the loss of Kosovo and Diber[disambiguation needed ] to Yugoslavia once again, and feared that the Allies in their support of the Greeks might prevent them from claiming Chameria and deprive them of their southern provinces of Korce and Gjirokaster, the heartland of their liberation movement [7]. They regarded the Yugoslavs and the Greeks as their real enemies [8].

The Mukje Agreement bought immediately a hostile reaction from the Yugoslav representative in Albania, Svetozar Vukmanovic-Tempo. He denounced the agreement and put pressure on the LNC to repute it at once[9]. Milovan Đilas described the Balli Kombëtar as Albanian Fascists[10].

The Balli Kombëtar, which had fought against Fascist Italy, were threatened by the superior forces of the LNC and the Yugoslav Partisans, who were backed by the Allies.[11] In the autumn of 1943, Germany occupied all of Albania after Italy was defeated. Fearing reprisals from the larger forces, the Balli Kombëtar made a deal with the Germans and formed a ‘neutral government’ in Tirana which continued its war with the LNC and Yugoslav Partisans.[12][13][14][15]

So, you allied with the Germans in Albania as well.

In Greece you were allied with the Italians...
...Although you weren't much of a force to worry about!

[Onur]

Sanmjak of Arnaut! Ha Ha Ha

Called by whom?

The Sanjaks were too small dear to include all of the Peloponesse. In any case, here are the facts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_divisions_of_the_Ottoman_Empire

Show me the "Sanjak of Arnaut" dear!

HA HA HA HA HA
I was thinking like you are the no.1 wikipedia boy, shame on you!!!. Read these;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanjak_of_Albania


It was in fact the first administrative sanjak of the Ottoman empire in Balkans dated back to 1385 AD covering today`s Albania, Montenegro, Chameria and part of Morea but later abandoned after new Turkish conquests in Balkans.

Interestingly, it was ruled by a christian Serbian from Montenegro, most likely because Serbs was the best allies of Turks in Balkans at that time;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavlo_Kurtik

[alb0zfinest]

The Albanians collaborated with the Italians in all fronts.

Even in far away places...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balli_Komb%C3%ABtar



So, you allied with the Germans in Albania as well.

In Greece you were allied with the Italians...
...Although you weren't much of a force to worry about!

Im not denying that SOME joined with the Nazis and Italians, but thats only because they were convinced that they would avenge the Greeks for forcefully removing the Cham Albanians, which transpired before the Italian occupation and the German-Albanian alliance. HOWEVER MANY joined the Greek peoples liberation army and the National anti-fascist liberation army of Albania to try to get the Italians and Germans out.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Cham_Albanians

[Heart of Oak]

Well it won't make much difference to England.
So let them kill each other, maybe we wont have to give them so much, or more likely we'll end up paying for their civil war, or worse send troops to sort it out.
Britain always profits from war......

Look at history......

[Ushtari]

Can you actually provide sources proving the killing of "innocent Cham civilians" outside of propagandistic Albanian websites?

If any, they took place during the WWII... If...


Zervas's troops not only chased the Chams out of their homes but massacred some of them as well, including an undetermined number of innocent civilians, women and children among them. About 30,000 fled their homes. Most went to Albania and some to Turkey. The Chams have campaigned for right of return to Greece and restoration or compensation of confiscated properties. As of 2011, this issue has continued to complicate Greek-Albanian relations.
Source (http://books.google.se/books?ei=thmxT7WPB4eA4gSk2czfCQ&id=jlKheq6g3r8C&dq=cham+albanians+killed&q=cham+albanians+killed#v=snippet&q=cham%20albanians%20killed&f=false)

[Petros Houhoulis]

There was a reason of why Morea (current central Greece) was called as "Sanjak of Arnaut" for about ~400 years. Same as Chameria for today`s northwestern Greece.

It`s rather ironic that Albanians totally forgot this fact today but looking for "Greater Albania" dreams in Macedonia, Kosovo, Serbia.


I was thinking like you are the no.1 wikipedia boy, shame on you!!!. Read these;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanjak_of_Albania


It was in fact the first administrative sanjak of the Ottoman empire in Balkans dated back to 1385 AD covering today`s Albania, Montenegro, Chameria and part of Morea but later abandoned after new Turkish conquests in Balkans.

Interestingly, it was ruled by a christian Serbian from Montenegro, most likely because Serbs was the best allies of Turks in Balkans at that time;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavlo_Kurtik

Onur, we were talking about Morea, not about Albania. Remember?

Beyond that, Sanjak of Albania, or even the Arvanid Sanjak is DIFFERENT from Sanjak of Arnaut. The latter might have been an unofficial term, but nonetheless wikipedia does not mention it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanjak_of_Albania


The Sanjak of Albania,[2] or Arvanid[3] (Turkish: sancak-i Arvanid),

Am I going to teach you English too now?

[Anarch]

Nce trolling brah but you won't fool anyone.

Macedonian man wants to extend the Wog Club. Too bad for him Ukrainians are lighter complexion than Anglos. :)

... I don't think that's the case, actually. And as for Ukrainians being considered wogs, it depends on who you ask. 'Wog' is more of a cultural thing than a racial designation. I know plenty of well-integrated, civilised Italians and Greeks who I wouldn't consider wogs. The main point stands: we really don't need more Greeks here. Not when we've got more Greeks in Australia than there are in Athens.



Britain always profits from war......

Look at history......

Yeah, Britain profited really well from the second world war. Britain ended up broke and lost its empire.


Yes, Europe can survive a civil war in Greece. It has survived the IRA's and ETA's actions so far with ease. It survived the Yugoslav wars as well. It still survives the Turks bloodshed of the Kurds and various European conflicts of all sorts...

...If I were them I would be more worried about the bloodshed south of their border in Mexico, which is a real civil war, and leave Greeces' rather peaceful conflicts alone...

IRA and ETA were relatively concentrated insurgencies. They still don't measure up to the violence of the Taliban. Comparing the prospect of a Greek civil war with the Yugoslav wars is also a poor comparison: the Yugoslav republics weren't integrated into Europe any more than Russia was. If the West, Russia and the Muslim world had've kept out, it's likely that it would've been about as structurally threatening as, well, Somalia's implosion.

Greece's 'peaceful' conflicts may very well become quite un-peaceful. I would not imagine it out of the question that Greece could implode and the right could turn the military first against the lefists and then against the immigrants. Militaries tend to be conservative and patriotic institutions. Now, the repercussions of that could be quite interesting.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Im not denying that SOME joined with the Nazis and Italians, but thats only because they were convinced that they would avenge the Greeks for forcefully removing the Cham Albanians, which transpired before the Italian occupation and the German-Albanian alliance. HOWEVER MANY joined the Greek peoples liberation army and the National anti-fascist liberation army of Albania to try to get the Italians and Germans out.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Cham_Albanians

The Greek state did nothing unusual for the time. The Concentration camps were also applied to the U.S.A. citizens of Japanese extract, who had much less of a possibility of joining the Imperial Japanese country than the Chams who actually did join the Italian army prior to the Greek-Italian conflict:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_Internment


Japanese-American internment was the relocation and internment by the United States government in 1942 of about 110,000 Japanese Americans and Japanese who lived along the Pacific coast of the United States to camps called "War Relocation Camps," in the wake of Imperial Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor.[1][2] The internment of Japanese Americans was applied unequally throughout the United States. All who lived on the West Coast of the United States were interned, while in Hawaii, where the 150,000-plus Japanese Americans composed over one-third of the population, an estimated 1,200[3] to 1,800 were interned.[4] Of those interned, 62% were American citizens.[5][6]
President Franklin D. Roosevelt authorized the internment with Executive Order 9066, issued February 19, 1942, which allowed local military commanders to designate "military areas" as "exclusion zones," from which "any or all persons may be excluded." This power was used to declare that all people of Japanese ancestry were excluded from the entire Pacific coast, including all of California and much of Oregon, Washington and Arizona, except for those in internment camps.[7] In 1944, the Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of the exclusion orders,[8] while noting that the provisions that singled out people of Japanese ancestry were a separate issue outside the scope of the proceedings.[9] The United States Census Bureau assisted the internment efforts by providing confidential neighborhood information on Japanese Americans. The Bureau's role was denied for decades, but was finally proven in 2007.[10][11]
In 1988, Congress passed and President Ronald Reagan signed legislation which apologized for the internment on behalf of the U.S. government. The legislation said that government actions were based on "race prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure of political leadership".[12] The U.S. government eventually disbursed more than $1.6 billion in reparations to Japanese Americans who had been interned and their heirs.[13]

Yet the Japanese-Americans did never rebel against the U.S. of A.

The Chams did so, and as a result they should be denied compensation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Cham_Albanians#Chams_as_excuse_for_th e_invasion


Following the Italian invasion of Albania, the Albanian Kingdom became a protectorate of the Kingdom of Italy. The Italians, especially governor Francesco Jacomoni, used the Cham issue as a means to rally Albanian support. Although in the event, Albanian enthusiasm for the "liberation of Chameria" was muted, Jacomoni sent repeated over-optimistic reports to Rome on Albanian support. As the possibility of an Italian attack on Greece drew nearer, he began arming Albanian irregular bands to use against Greece.[9]
As the final excuse for the start of the Greco-Italian War, Jacomoni used the killing of a Cham Albanian leader Daut Hoxha, whose headless body was discovered near the village of Vrina in June 1940. It was alleged by the Italian-controlled government in Tirana that he had been murdered by Greek secret agents. Daut Hoxha was a notorious bandit killed in a fight over some sheep with two shepherds. According to some other specific works Hoxha was a military leader of the Cham struggle during the inter-war years, leading to him branded as a bandit by the Greek government.[10]
From June of that same year up to the eve of the war, due to the instigation of Albanian and Italian propaganda, many Chams had secretly crossed the borders in order to compose armed groups, which were to side with the Italians. Their numbers are estimated of about 2,000 to 3,000 men. Adding to them in the following months the Italians urgently started organizing several thousand local Albanians volunteers to participate on the "liberation of Chamuria" creating an army equivalent to a full division of 9 battalions (4 blackshirt battalions -Tirana, Korçë, Vlorë, Shkodër-, 2 infantry battalions -Gramos and Dajti-, 2 volunteer battalions -Tomori and Barabosi-, one battery corps -Drin-[11]). All of them eventually took part in the invasion to Greece at October 28, 1940 (see Greco-Italian War) under the XXV Italian Army Corps which after the incorporation of the Albanian units renamed to “Chamuria Army Corps” under General C. Rossi, although with poor performance .[12]
The Greco-Italian War started with the Italian military forces launching an invasion of Greece from Albanian territory. The invasion force included several hundred native Albanian and Chams in blackshirt battalions attached to the Italian army. Their performance however was distinctly lackluster, as most Albanians, poorly motivated, either deserted or defected. Indeed, the Italian commanders, including Mussolini, would later use the Albanians as scapegoats for the Italian failure.[9]
These two Albanian battalions, namely, battalion Tomorri and Gramshi, were formed in the Italian army only three months before the invasion, and during the Greco-Italian War, the majority of them crossed to the Greek Army. The leader of these two battalions, Spiro Moisiu, would become the general in chief of the Albanian Anti-Fascist Army, and eventually a head of the Albanian Army after the war.[13]

Therefore all the internments from the side of the Greek government were legal precautions. You gave pretext first! Greece only begun apprehending your people at October 1940:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Cham_Albanians#Collaboration


In October 1940, the Greek authorities disarmed 1800 Cham conscripts and put them to work on local roads. In the following month they seized all Albanian males not called up and deported them to camps or to island exile.[8] On the other hand the Axis forces adopted a pro-Albanian policy, promising that the region will become part of a Greater Albania when the war ends.[14] Under these circumstances,[8] as Italy managed to control most of Greece after the German invasion, Cham Albanians formed armed groups and provided active support to the occupation forces.[14] These armed bands under the leadership of gendarmerie officers Nuri and Mazar Dino participated in the Axis operations (village burnings, murders, executions) and committed a number of crimes in both Greece and Albania.[15] However, it seems that local beys (most of them were already part of the Albanian nationalistic and partly collaborationist group Balli Competar) and the mufti did not support such actions.[8]
Although the Italians wanted to annex Chameria to Albania, the Germans vetoed the proposal. An Albanian High Commissioner, Xhemil Dino, was appointed, but his authority was limited, and for the duration of the Occupation, the area remained under direct control from the occupational military authorities.[9]


Source (http://books.google.se/books?ei=thmxT7WPB4eA4gSk2czfCQ&id=jlKheq6g3r8C&dq=cham+albanians+killed&q=cham+albanians+killed#v=snippet&q=cham%20albanians%20killed&f=false)

I am afraid that the page which you provided does not open. The book itself is attainable, but the pages from 15 until 219 are not part of the review, and I cannot see them.

What was the number of the Cham casualties, and is there an info of whether they were civilians or "blackshirts"?

The death of civilians would most definitely be reprehensible. Maybe the descendants of such victims deserve a compensation, but then Germany has failed to compensate directly the relatives of thousands of Greek people who were executed all over Greece during the WWII.

[Sultan Suleiman]

Actually if westerners get the fuck out of the balkans, you'd do us all a favour. Take your fucking bondsteel with you, and leave the Balkan Christians deal with those pesky muslim minorities....:thumb001:

Then maybe Turkey then needs to step in to stop the pesky little Christians from getting too uppity for their own good :rolleyes:

[Sultan Suleiman]

Never mind that, as a Greater Albania is supported by 60% of the population in Albania.

Trust me more people support greater Serbia.

[Petros Houhoulis]

...

IRA and ETA were relatively concentrated insurgencies. They still don't measure up to the violence of the Taliban. Comparing the prospect of a Greek civil war with the Yugoslav wars is also a poor comparison: the Yugoslav republics weren't integrated into Europe any more than Russia was. If the West, Russia and the Muslim world had've kept out, it's likely that it would've been about as structurally threatening as, well, Somalia's implosion.

Greece's 'peaceful' conflicts may very well become quite un-peaceful. I would not imagine it out of the question that Greece could implode and the right could turn the military first against the lefists and then against the immigrants. Militaries tend to be conservative and patriotic institutions. Now, the repercussions of that could be quite interesting.

Well, traditionally Yugoslavia has always been considered a portion of Europe, but I guess that there are various degrees of Europeanness...

The leftists and the immigrants who are "out of control" reside mostly in Attica and in a lesser degree in Thessaloniki. This is where the situation goes out of control from time to time since a few years ago, but the Greek hinterland has yet to show any serious signs of unrest - even in minority dominated areas.

As a result, any military or police action shall be aimed at very small (albeit densely populated) areas of the Greek state, rendering their mission rather easy.

Well, I did introduce the meaning of squalor in another thread, about another region... It is a true menace everywhere...

[Anarch]

Well, traditionally Yugoslavia has always been considered a portion of Europe, but I guess that there are various degrees of Europeanness...

Precisely. The Balkans spent hundreds of years under the Turks, gained independence, and was swiftly repressed under communism. Exposure to the Enlightenment and the Renaissance is comparatively... limited. I'm not declaring the Balkans part of the middle east, but whatever violence erupted there would have had little impact on the way the rest of Europe functioned. Greece, on the other hand, is politically, militarily and economically integrated into Europe in a way the ex-Yugoslav nations still aren't.

[Great Dane]

Europe survived the breakup of Yugoslavia and civil war in Bosnia. It will survive civil war in Greece, if it comes to that.

[Crn Volk]

Then maybe Turkey then needs to step in to stop the pesky little Christians from getting too uppity for their own good :rolleyes:

The last Balkan Christian alliance did not turn out so well for the Turks....

[The Lawspeaker]

The last Balkan Christian alliance did not turn out so well for the Turks....

When Turkey was the Sick Man of Europe..

[alb0zfinest]

The Greek state did nothing unusual for the time. The Concentration camps were also applied to the U.S.A. citizens of Japanese extract, who had much less of a possibility of joining the Imperial Japanese country than the Chams who actually did join the Italian army prior to the Greek-Italian conflict:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_Internment



Yet the Japanese-Americans did never rebel against the U.S. of A.

The Chams did so, and as a result they should be denied compensation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Cham_Albanians#Chams_as_excuse_for_th e_invasion



Therefore all the internments from the side of the Greek government were legal precautions. You gave pretext first! Greece only begun apprehending your people at October 1940:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Cham_Albanians#Collaboration





I am afraid that the page which you provided does not open. The book itself is attainable, but the pages from 15 until 219 are not part of the review, and I cannot see them.

What was the number of the Cham casualties, and is there an info of whether they were civilians or "blackshirts"?

The death of civilians would most definitely be reprehensible. Maybe the descendants of such victims deserve a compensation, but then Germany has failed to compensate directly the relatives of thousands of Greek people who were executed all over Greece during the WWII.

The Americans sent the Japanese on INTERNMENT CAMPS, very very different from Concentration camps. Not to even mention that it's irrelevant because Greeks didin't send Chams to internment camps, they simply forcefully moved them out of Greece.
But i wasn't even talking about when Chams decided to ally with the Italians, i was talking about prior years. To some extent the Greeks were right to remove SOME Chams due to their collaboration with the Fascist Italians and Germans. But then there were MANY who became part of the Greek peoples liberation army as well as the National anti-fascist liberation army of Albania to attempt to get the Italian/german forces out. should they too be expelled when they attempted to help the Greeks?, not even mentioning that quite alot were massacred. The actual truth is that the Greeks began expeling the Chams before they allied with the Italians, the Cham-Italian alliance was merely an actual reason to justify their acts AFTERWARDS. As for compensation Greece doesn't have money to provide for them. Land they won't provide because they won't assimilate as the other Albanians. And even if they did that still wouldn't excuse the massacres. Its obvious for them to rebell, what do you expect when your forcefully removing them off the land which they lived for hundreds of years.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Europe survived the breakup of Yugoslavia and civil war in Bosnia. It will survive civil war in Greece, if it comes to that.

The real problem is not a civil war in Greece, but the aftershocks in the Eurozone after a Greek departure from the Euro. Still, Germany and the other Northern economies won't collapse...

[Petros Houhoulis]

The last Balkan Christian alliance did not turn out so well for the Turks....

What do you know about it? You were never part of that alliance, not to mention Yane Sandanskis' overtures to the Young Turks...

[Petros Houhoulis]

The Americans sent the Japanese on INTERNMENT CAMPS, very very different from Concentration camps.

Yes, I've noticed the... Different wording.


Not to even mention that it's irrelevant because Greeks didin't send Chams to internment camps, they simply forcefully moved them out of Greece.

That was after they kept rebelling. Nevertheless, this happened to many NAZI allies, even the Finns who clearly didn't deserve it since the U.S.S.R. invaded them first. Hell, even the Poles moved from what used to be Poland towards west of the new Polish border, in the Curzon line:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curzon_line

For more information about the population shifts against former NAZI allies, check the Beneš decrees:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bene%C5%A1_decrees


But i wasn't even talking about when Chams decided to ally with the Italians, i was talking about prior years.

...And yet you forgot to provide SOURCES. Anyway, you are not really lying, there was a treaty about population exchanges as part of the Lausanne treaty which specified that all Muslims of Greece would move to Turkey but...

...First of all very few Muslim Albanians actually moved to Turkey. They demanded to be exempt from the population exchanges since they were not Turks, and they succeeded.

...Secondly, you should blame the Turks because they demanded that the exchanges should take place on the basis of religious affiliations rather than ethnic ones. You see, they had problems with their Muslim minorities, especially the Kurds, and they tried as much as possible to establish their new identity upon a religious foundation - not unusual since the Ottoman empire was using that classification merely a few years earlier (although the Greek state was still pretty much Christian dominated at that point too.)

Thirdly, the Lausanne Treaty which authorized the population exchanges was an international treaty with signatories all of the major war parties of the WWI including... Japan. Thus, legally - albeit unjustifiably - we still had the right to expell of the Muslims from Greece at that point, except for the ones living in the prefectures of Xanthi and Rhodope, and even a few in the Evros prefecture.

Finally, and most important of all, the Christians who fled Turkey accounted for 1.500.000 people against some 500.000 Muslims who took the other way around. If somebody is entitled to cry "foul" here this is the Greek state, which received 1 million more people than it sent out of the country:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey


It involved approximately 2 million people (around 1.5 million Anatolian Greeks and 500,000 Muslims in Greece), most of whom were forcibly made refugees and de jure denaturalized from their homelands.

You've never seen me whinning about it, despite the fact that it was much more costly for Greece than for a few hundred Muslim Chams in Greece, and my own family lost at least 2 people because of that exchange. Why are you whinning? And above all, establish your sources in order for us to find the exact number of Muslim Chams who fled Greece LEGALLY under the Lausanne treaty...


To some extent the Greeks were right to remove SOME Chams due to their collaboration with the Fascist Italians and Germans. But then there were MANY who became part of the Greek peoples liberation army as well as the National anti-fascist liberation army of Albania to attempt to get the Italian/german forces out. should they too be expelled when they attempted to help the Greeks?

Not really. I am sorry, but Greece had to endure a succession of WWII (1941-1944) and the Greek civil war (1945-1949) with the latter resulting to more casualties and material losses for Greece than the first one!!! It was impossible for cooler heads to prevail at that time, and - even worse - all of the Balkan states fell under the Soviet block (including Yugoslavia prior to 1948) amd as a result, all of the Western forces ganged up in the side of Greece against all of its' northern neighbors. The British and the U.S.Americans went as far as lambasting several villages with napalm bombs...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napalm#Historical_use


Napalm B was also used during the Greek Civil War between the Greek Army and Communist rebels. During the last year of this Civil War, 1949, the United States increased its military aid to the Greek Government by introducing a new weapon to finish off the war - napalm B. The first napalm attack in Greece took place on the mountain of Grammos, which was the stronghold of the Communist rebels.

The Greek army had little idea of what the Napalm B was, and it is not certain that they were consulted of its' usage or even approved of it. There are hints that the Greek HQ objected to it's usage in the modern Greek film «Ψυχή βαθιά» while the IOS of the discontinued Eleytherotypia promotes the opposite idea, that the Greek army desired the usage of even more napalm bombs...

...The whole era was definitely characterized by total savagery.


, not even mentioning that quite alot were massacred.

The Cham rebels massacred Greek civilians as well, so your point is moot.


The actual truth is that the Greeks began expeling the Chams before they allied with the Italians, the Cham-Italian alliance was merely an actual reason to justify their acts AFTERWARDS.

See above - Lausanne treaty.


As for compensation Greece doesn't have money to provide for them. Land they won't provide because they won't assimilate as the other Albanians.

Actually, they do! Numerous Muslim Albanians were baptized at the insistence of their Arvanite "cousins", and they have been assimilated ever since. I do not know if any Chams are included, but I would not be surprised about it.

As for the land, Greece has already hosted more than a million legal and (mostly) illegal Albanian immigrants. Maybe you have been granted too much land instead!


And even if they did that still wouldn't excuse the massacres. Its obvious for them to rebel, what do you expect when your forcefully removing them off the land which they lived for hundreds of years.

They rebelled just prior to WWII with Italian instagation while the (minimal) expulsions of Chams took place in the 1920's... I do not truly believe that these expulsions could count as a pretext. Beyond that, Greece was and remains a functional democracy, something that the resident Albanians have failed to utilize at their advantage at any point during the 20th century - Only an Arvanite dictator, Pangalos, tried to do something about it!

On the other hand, Albania is still a recent and dysfunctional democracy with riots at every single electoral process, and not only. Maybe... You are rioting a bit more often than you should? ...And I have seen no proof that the Muslim Chams rioted in Greece between the Lausanne Treaty and it's application at the 1920's and the WWII. Did the Muslim Chams remember their grievances after keeping quiet for 2 decades or what? Your story does not add up, dear Alb0zfinest...

[alb0zfinest]

Yes, I've noticed the... Different wording.That was after they kept rebelling. Nevertheless, this happened to many NAZI allies, even the Finns who clearly didn't deserve it since the U.S.S.R. invaded them first. Hell, even the Poles moved from what used to be Poland towards west of the new Polish border, in the Curzon line:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curzon_line

For more information about the population shifts against former NAZI allies, check the Beneš decrees:

The Cham Albanians still were'nt sent to Internment camps that would be too good of a treatment from the Greeks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bene%C5%A1_decrees...And yet you forgot to provide SOURCES. Anyway, you are not really lying, there was a treaty about population exchanges as part of the Lausanne treaty which specified that all Muslims of Greece would move to Turkey but...

...First of all very few Muslim Albanians actually moved to Turkey. They demanded to be exempt from the population exchanges since they were not Turks, and they succeeded.

...Secondly, you should blame the Turks because they demanded that the exchanges should take place on the basis of religious affiliations rather than ethnic ones. You see, they had problems with their Muslim minorities, especially the Kurds, and they tried as much as possible to establish their new identity upon a religious foundation - not unusual since the Ottoman empire was using that classification merely a few years earlier (although the Greek state was still pretty much Christian dominated at that point too.)

Thirdly, the Lausanne Treaty which authorized the population exchanges was an international treaty with signatories all of the major war parties of the WWI including... Japan. Thus, legally - albeit unjustifiably - we still had the right to expell of the Muslims from Greece at that point, except for the ones living in the prefectures of Xanthi and Rhodope, and even a few in the Evros prefecture.

Just because some countries signed the treaty, it doesnt make it just. As i previously mentioned there were many Chams, MUSLIM and Christian, who joined the ELAS and the National Anti-Fascist Liberation army of Albania
and how are they rewarded? their bannishment.
"In 1913, the area of Chameria, as the whole Southern Epirus came under Greek control. Cham Albanians were given no minority status and they were discriminated. Muslim Chams were counted as a religious minority, and some of them were transferred to Turkey, during the 1923 population exchange, while their property was alienated by the Greek government, this being a term of the Turkish-Greek peace agreement. Orthodox Cham Albanians were counted as Greeks, and their language and Albanian heritage were under pressure of assimilation."" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cham_issue)
As the quote clearly states, they were denied simple rights. They were counted as Greeks during censuses, and like the Arvanites the Greeks attempted to forcefully assimilate the Chams.
As proven by the quote, expulsion and government taking land from the Chams began even before the war and was pretty serious.
The supposable treaty that "gave the right" to Greeks to expell Albanians didn't even specify the Cham issue. Furthermore, the Greeks (as supported by the quote) put the chams as a muslim minority so they would be sent to Turkey. There were also many more who were forced to leave to Albania.
The population exchange was not a choice as you say many didnt just not go to Turkey, they were forced to go there. Simple fact is that after Greece annexed Chameria under the treaty of London, they didn't know what to do with their muslim minorities so they attempted to
1)Assimilate them by denying them minority status and using other tactics
2)If they did not assimilate, they would be shipped to Turkey or other parts of the balkans forcefully
3)If they did nither they were discriminated against, suppressed and therefore were given no other choice but to flee.


Finally, and most important of all, the Christians who fled Turkey accounted for 1.500.000 people against some 500.000 Muslims who took the other way around. If somebody is entitled to cry "foul" here this is the Greek state, which received 1 million more people than it sent out of the country:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey



You've never seen me whinning about it, despite the fact that it was much more costly for Greece than for a few hundred Muslim Chams in Greece, and my own family lost at least 2 people because of that exchange. Why are you whinning? And above all, establish your sources in order for us to find the exact number of Muslim Chams who fled Greece LEGALLY under the Lausanne treaty...

Doesn't pretain to me but to Ushtari, Nonetheless Ushtari provided a source as to the number of Chams who were expelled.

Not really. I am sorry, but Greece had to endure a succession of WWII (1941-1944) and the Greek civil war (1945-1949) with the latter resulting to more casualties and material losses for Greece than the first one!!! It was impossible for cooler heads to prevail at that time, and - even worse - all of the Balkan states fell under the Soviet block (including Yugoslavia prior to 1948) amd as a result, all of the Western forces ganged up in the side of Greece against all of its' northern neighbors. The British and the U.S.Americans went as far as lambasting several villages with napalm bombs...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napalm#Historical_use



The Greek army had little idea of what the Napalm B was, and it is not certain that they were consulted of its' usage or even approved of it. There are hints that the Greek HQ objected to it's usage in the modern Greek film «Ψυχή βαθιά» while the IOS of the discontinued Eleytherotypia promotes the opposite idea, that the Greek army desired the usage of even more napalm bombs...

...The whole era was definitely characterized by total savagery.

Not relevant to my comment

The Cham rebels massacred Greek civilians as well, so your point is moot.See above - Lausanne treaty.Actually, they do! Numerous Muslim Albanians were baptized at the insistence of their Arvanite "cousins", and they have been assimilated ever since. I do not know if any Chams are included, but I would not be surprised about it.

What would you expect after you forcefully remove the people off their land which they settled for many years, not granting them minority status, and discriminating agaisnt them.

As for the land, Greece has already hosted more than a million legal and (mostly) illegal Albanian immigrants. Maybe you have been granted too much land instead!

Those Albanians in Greece today are suppressed, given few rights, and as expected discriminated against. I wouldn't say thats granting anything. What happend in ww2 is no different to what you are doing to the Albanians in Greece today, except that this time you don't use violence.

They rebelled just prior to WWII with Italian instagation while the (minimal) expulsions of Chams took place in the 1920's... I do not truly believe that these expulsions could count as a pretext. Beyond that, Greece was and remains a functional democracy, something that the resident Albanians have failed to utilize at their advantage at any point during the 20th century - Only an Arvanite dictator, Pangalos, tried to do something about it!

On the other hand, Albania is still a recent and dysfunctional democracy with riots at every single electoral process, and not only. Maybe... You are rioting a bit more often than you should? ...And I have seen no proof that the Muslim Chams rioted in Greece between the Lausanne Treaty and it's application at the 1920's and the WWII. Did the Muslim Chams remember their grievances after keeping quiet for 2 decades or what? Your story does not add up, dear Alb0zfinest...

There were protests in 2009 and in 2011, i don't think 2 times apply to every single electoral process. Rioting is actually a sign of democracy, the fact that the people can take to the streets what they see as corruption is a sign of freedom. If someone is in power for 20 years and thousands of people are demonstarting agaisnt him then there is clearly corruption here which is why the protests took place. Albania is still transitioning from a Communist mindset to a Democratic one. It will take time, but i think Albanias transition was rather quick.