The average person's mind

[Kale]

I'm new here so it may be a bit out of place for me to say this, but I really think I should.

I'm not sure how many Americans are here, but from what I've gathered the people here are different from mainstream Americans. The reasons we are different vary, and whether whoever thinks those differences are good or bad are irrelevent to the discussion I hope to achieve.

Each of us here probably has an ideal of what society should be, and each of us probably wants to work to make society more like that ideal. To do that it is well accepted that you have to make the teenagers/young adults think more like you as a top priority.

The discussion I wish to start here is, pardon, what the hell do these people think? Their behavior and motivations are a complete mystery to me and I'm guessing many others. Needless to say this interferes with any plans of social progress if you can't speak to the masses on their level.

I encourage others to post material for examination, as I plan to do myself shortly. I also encourage that those engaging in discussion try not to sway each other's opinions; this is for study purposes, not debate. If you come to a disagreement on something, just agree to disagree and move on.

[Belenus]

There are a lot of things that can be said about the shortcomings of the modern American mentality. Just how separate from the mainstream do you feel? What exactly are the aspects of American mass culture that aggravate you most?

I don't wish to offend any Americans, but I think the problems with America's society stretch back to revolutionary and pre-revolutionary times. The abandonment of British heritage and monarchy was a spiritual catastrophe which set America on a negative path. Bringing African slaves to the New World was also a terrible decision in retrospect.

If you ask me, America suffers from a deep severance from Europe (the wellspring of its people) and a careless disregard for tradition and history. Americans generally see only the future, and project their infantile fantasies upon it continuously, rather than honouring the ways of their ancestors and keeping their connection to history strong and unaltered.

Thanks to international Americanisation, this tendency has now been exported from America back to Europe and other European colonies, which is quite unfortunate.

[Kale]

Thank you for your response Belenus.

To answer your questions, I feel very seperate from the mainstream; it's not just that I can't find anyone who shares my values, but I can't even find someone who's values don't conflict with mine in a way that makes them act negatively towards me.

I don't really want to just list off the things that irritate me, plenty of people do that. What I plan on doing is posting something a bit specific or a single specific topic and perhaps discuss them one at a time. These topics don't even have to be anything terribly objectionable, just something that perhaps I (and probably others) lack understanding of.

Also while I respect your opinions regarding where America may have gone wrong in it's history, I think this discussion should focus more (at least for now) on the present.
__________________________________________________ ________

Here is a video I shot with hypercam after creating this thread.

It contains a group of people engaging in chat in what is essentially a commentary box for a popular card game occuring between two people. Note that almost immediately people start spouting off "memes". These are short phrases or "jokes" very popular with young adults. They contain very little meaning and from my observations are perhaps used as a way to fit in to the group or feel clever from using them. Perhaps we could discuss the significance of memes and how they affect the American culture or way of thinking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xr3lalx3yH8

[Kazimiera]

What kind of studies are you doing?

[Kale]

Anything that would give better insight into the enigmatic workings of the mind of the common young American.

[Kale]

Another thing I've noticed, especially online, and especially in off-topic forums, is the popularity of "what is your favorite [song,color,food,etc.]" topics. People post in these for some reason, just to say one short thing about themselves, not responding to any others' posts. I'm not sure if they expect a response, if they expect people to really care about their trivial opinions (They surely have no real world effect on anyone else).
__________________________________________________ ________________________
And even when you find a fairly interesting/informative/thought provoking topic, this is what will often happen to it. Derailed by memes before the discussion even begins.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSRyxbfrClk

[Kale]

Is anyone besides me interested in pursuing this realm of study?

[larali]

I'm new here so it may be a bit out of place for me to say this, but I really think I should.

I'm not sure how many Americans are here, but from what I've gathered the people here are different from mainstream Americans. The reasons we are different vary, and whether whoever thinks those differences are good or bad are irrelevent to the discussion I hope to achieve.

Each of us here probably has an ideal of what society should be, and each of us probably wants to work to make society more like that ideal. To do that it is well accepted that you have to make the teenagers/young adults think more like you as a top priority.

The discussion I wish to start here is, pardon, what the hell do these people think? Their behavior and motivations are a complete mystery to me and I'm guessing many others. Needless to say this interferes with any plans of social progress if you can't speak to the masses on their level.

I encourage others to post material for examination, as I plan to do myself shortly. I also encourage that those engaging in discussion try not to sway each other's opinions; this is for study purposes, not debate. If you come to a disagreement on something, just agree to disagree and move on.


Methodism works for me :D

[Stefan]

I don't wish to offend any Americans, but I think the problems with America's society stretch back to revolutionary and pre-revolutionary times. The abandonment of British heritage and monarchy was a spiritual catastrophe which set America on a negative path. Bringing African slaves to the New World was also a terrible decision in retrospect.


I have to disagree almost entirely. Americans (the ethnicity) didn't abandon their roots in Europe, they just led a different direction, one much closer to the common man of these European countries than I'd say the elites of Europe followed (and consequently their subjects.) It was also one that enabled the most prolific nation in the world within such a short time-span. The United States pushed political standards, scientific standards, and developmental standards which had enabled a very attractive environment for anybody to live how they wished to live. The issues of the United States that plague Americans(the ethnic Americans as well as those who have assimilated) are deviations from our standards of what is American, precisely in the direction of modern post-WII European states and other failed post-colonial nations(Bolivar Republics.)

I know this very well as it is something I see in the core of the United States, within the small towns and the country, but also in the echoes of the past found among the cities. The issue isn't that Americans aren't European, but because Americans are losing to non-Americans in a demographically changing nation, and even more importantly, Americans have internal struggle within our own people -- who count on this premise of our destruction.

Nevertheless, I know that when things go bad in the United States the strongest will be those who regain power, and they are quite apparently the American men and women, who right now seem rare because they've forfeited their power, but are quite numerous and complacent - for now. Something along the lines of a sleeping hydra, is what I think.

I do agree with the matter of Africans, though. They should have all been sent to Liberia with the end of slavery.

[Kale]

Larali - What?

Stefan - I understand you are just responding to what Belenus' said, but I think that is a topic for another thread.

[Stefan]

Stefan - I understand you are just responding to what Belenus' said, but I think that is a topic for another thread.

Ah, I'll address your topic then. :)


Each of us here probably has an ideal of what society should be, and each of us probably wants to work to make society more like that ideal. To do that it is well accepted that you have to make the teenagers/young adults think more like you as a top priority.


I don't think it is the responsibility for any individual or group to actively sway the decisions of the youth, in the context of the United States. It must be a natural progression, and hence passive, with the exception of traditions passed from parent to child. Otherwise, you'll have people pulling in different directions, and since the very basis of the country - even without the new demographic changes - is diverse, there is an issue of diverging paths and a functional tear-up of the federal state and the interests of individual states. The inhabitants of the United States have never been one nation, and hence there has never been a nation-state. So the means of altering the mindset, actively, of the next generation will not work for the very premise of maintaining the cohesion of the union. Furthermore, due to the inherent diversity, I'd argue that there is NOT a way to alter the entire teenage and young-adult generation's cultural progression. There is no homogeneity or spectrum to alter; it is far too discrete.

That is why the federalist system was implemented, and why there are vast differences among the various states and regions, culturally and lawfully. The states are very competitive, as well.


I'm not sure if they expect a response, if they expect people to really care about their trivial opinions (They surely have no real world effect on anyone else).

It is significant to those with whom they've developed an online friendship prior to the making of the thread. So some do care about their opinions. Most don't, of course.


Here is a video I shot with hypercam after creating this thread.

It contains a group of people engaging in chat in what is essentially a commentary box for a popular card game occuring between two people. Note that almost immediately people start spouting off "memes". These are short phrases or "jokes" very popular with young adults. They contain very little meaning and from my observations are perhaps used as a way to fit in to the group or feel clever from using them. Perhaps we could discuss the significance of memes and how they affect the American culture or way of thinking.

Memes are more of a global phenomenon, and pre-date the internet. In fact, there were theories of their sociological evolution (analogous to biological evolution) in the mid-20th century. The only difference is that the internet enables them to grow much larger, and reproduce more often at faster rates.I believe this is a matter of High-context cultures vs. Low-context cultures. Most of the United States consists of lower-context cultures, which means these memes will affect the culture less than in a high-context culture. For example, compare Japan with the American Northeast.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_context_culture

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memetics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_meme

[Svipdag]

Another thing I've noticed, especially online, and especially in off-topic forums, is the popularity of "what is your favorite [song,color,food,etc.]" topics. People post in these for some reason, just to say one short thing about themselves, not responding to any others' posts. I'm not sure if they expect a response, if they expect people to really care about their trivial opinions (They surely have no real world effect on anyone else).
__________________________________________________ ________________________
And even when you find a fairly interesting/informative/thought provoking topic, this is what will often happen to it. Derailed by memes before the discussion even begins.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSRyxbfrClk

I am sure that you will find, as I have,that it is the exception rather than the rule for anyone to respond to any post unless the responder takes some remark in the post as a personal insult.

As far as informative posts are concerned, as an experienced "voice crying in the wilderness", I can assert that they rarely receive any response whatever and even more rarely ever earn the poster any reputation points.

Often, I find new posts containing arguments which I have already addressed and discredited, and it is clear that the poster has either not read or has not understood my post on the same subject. Often, I become so tired of repeating myself that I avoid that subject thereafter.

So, I wholeheartedly support your objectives, but be prepared for frustration !


"CONTRA NEGANTEM PRINCIPIA NON EST DISPVTANDVM" - auctor mihi inognitus

[Kale]

Stefan - Well, I responded to your post but somehow that post responding to yours went bye bye. O_o

Svipdag - Yeah I know where you are coming from too, I've been posting informative topics on forums across the web for years.

[Stefan]

Stefan - Well, I responded to your post but somehow that post responding to yours went bye bye. O_o


Likely because of the database update.

[Kale]

Blasted technology.

[Sarmatian]

Your question intrigued me and I took my time to think about it.

As I see it the reason for such behaviour is the fact that majority of people today have very short attention span compared to what people have had 100 and more years ago. And I think its caused by presence of technology in our everyday life.

Some hundreds of years ago majority of people have had quite a number of tasks in their everyday lives they needed to address just in order to survive. And some of these tasks required careful planning long time ahead. For instance to keep your house warm during winter you have to go and take some wood or coal from storage, start fire while keeping safety in mind. One simple mistake could cost you your life and lives of all people that live with you. But to be able to get your fuel from storage you have to prepare it ahead during summer so you have enough to survive a winter.

Same with light, water, food supplies and so on. It's all required some effort to be accomplished. While it seems as simple things to do, they naturally contributed to development of attention focus and abilities to plan as a regular simple exercises of mind and body.

Today all these things available to us almost immediately by turn of a valve or click of a button. We don't have to produce our own food anymore (as it was the case for 90% of people just some 300-400 years ago) nor need to go to the places where its being produced. We don't even need to bother ourselves with the problem of getting money to acquire all necessities as well developed social welfare system will gladly compensate for our inability/unwillingness to provide.

Vast majority of people are lazy by nature. Only immediate threat to their survival will convince them to do something. As long as such threats are eliminated people evolving into primitive beings whose only interest in life is to satisfy their immediate emotional impulses. These are the real zombies that represent significant part of our 'developed' society today. They have little to no conscious will and their motivation changes 120 times a minute. They are highly susceptible to media influence and have no clear understanding why they do the things they do.

The topic is huge and worth its own research. Sorry for the long post, hard to explain it short.

[Kale]

Thank you for the reply Sarmation. My first thought to what you said is that it's damn true. Not really what I hoped the reality of it would be. The implications are not too pleasant; however, it's the truth, it's the reality, and so to say, the challenge we're up against.

If the only thing that will break this curse is a threat to their survival, or at least a perceived threat; it appears that fear will be the most direct, if not only, way to get through. Even then if you explain to them a potential threat to their survival, they may not want to believe it.

[Sarmatian]

Thank you for the reply Sarmation. My first thought to what you said is that it's damn true. Not really what I hoped the reality of it would be. The implications are not too pleasant; however, it's the truth, it's the reality, and so to say, the challenge we're up against.

If the only thing that will break this curse is a threat to their survival, or at least a perceived threat; it appears that fear will be the most direct, if not only, way to get through. Even then if you explain to them a potential threat to their survival, they may not want to believe it.

The biggest problem of the challenge as I see it is the specifics of perception of modern young generations. They are detached from reality, they are unable to perceive the immediate natural environment as it is. Simply because pretty much everything they need being provided to them with a push of a button. They have no idea what are the mechanisms involved behind this button and honestly they don't want to know.

There are few that retained realistic approach. Most of them were exposed to survival or extreme situations which helped them to see the difference. But they are too few to have any significant effect.

So the question is: what perceived threat you are going to use to bring these people back to reality? For them wars only happens in movies, they have seen disasters, famine, epidemics and all sorts of troubles only in the news or documentaries. Their logic is primitive: any threat? Dial 911 and things will get sorted for you.

The only way I see it is to take away this 'button' from them. Make their lives uncomfortable so they will have to get up and actually do something themselves.

[Kale]

Exactly, that right there is what I want everyone to come together to help find the solution in this thread. I want to come up with ideas, test them, and analyze the results.

The first thing I want to find out, is regarding this,
"There are few that retained realistic approach. Most of them were exposed to survival or extreme situations which helped them to see the difference."
I very much believe that a certain amount of survival/extreme situations will create a permanent appreciation for the mechanisms behind the button. But how much is the question? And how do we expose them to it?

Nature comes to mind; toss someone out in the wild for a week, and if they survive they'd have a very deep appreciation for even the most basic of needs. Of course we can't do that, but is there anything someone would be willing to do that at least gives an exposure to the elements?

[Sarmatian]

First you have to decide if you want to change adults that live now or you want to make coming generation to grow being more reasonable and realistic.

The only way to change adults is to take "the button" away from them. For example cut the power in living areas for an hour or two, and then gradually increase that time up to a few days. No light, no TV/computer/Internet, no water. Just inability to flush the toilet for a few days is a huge problem on its own and able to give enough shock to an average person to shake his stable world. They'll have to sort it all out themselves. But you should understand that no matter which way you do this there will be discontent and deaths as not everyone will be willing or able to adapt to such situations.

For growing children educational summer camps for 3-4 weeks would work. But not those well equipped with all modern facilities in place. Make it in downshifter's village: no power, no portable electronic devices, water from river or well, no fancy snack foods, only natural food, cooking only on fire, sleeping in simple cabins or tents. The best if they will have to build all necessary facilities by themselves and provide at least some food by fishing and/or hunting.

However there is no way to make effects of such education permanent for everyone. Humans are lazy by nature as the main mechanism that drives our ego is the principle of least action. As soon as people exposed to conditions in which "the button" is active for long period of time most will start to degrade.

Only rational types, *NT* personalities in MBTI, are capable of retaining realistic approach regardless of their living conditions and these people are rarest. Once they experience life in natural conditions it will be imprinted in their attitude forever. Some people of *ST* types will manage well too. But idealistic feelers will change their attitude very fast as soon as level of comfort increase. So there is no universal pill that can fix everyone once and forever.

From this perspective it is very interesting to look at military structure of Switzerland. Compulsory military service for entire male population with regular military exercises during their lives is a good way to expose people to hard conditions. If you'll manage to keep all male population in check this way you'll sort most of problems.

[Kale]

Educational summer camps, definitely something I want to do. But how I can organize that I don't know, damn buraucracy denies all access to information.

I just found a free online MBTI and scored INFP. I think your theory of that must be lacking something.

[Sarmatian]

Well you don't think that all Feelers dropping down the degradation road. I'd expect extraverted ones to be more susceptible to it. Introverts are more prone to listen to their inner senses when considering what is right and what's wrong while extraverts are falling for signals coming from outside.

But it will take some field research before one can make a final conclusion on the matter.

[Kale]

I don't think that, I just thought you did.