Fair Afghans

[Loki]

I've noticed some interesting pictures on this blog (http://pastmist.wordpress.com/) about fair, European-looking Afghans. A few of them:

http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/afghanistankabulgirlen.jpg?w=360&h=480

http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/afghangirlpashtuntribalzone.jpg?w=459&h=368

http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/afghangirlkabul2.jpg?w=335&h=500

http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/afghanpulkumri21.jpg?w=331&h=500

http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/afghanman_arte.jpg?w=460&h=345

http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/afghankiddo1.jpg?w=405&h=497

http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/afghans1.jpg?w=257&h=256

http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/afghangirl_1.jpg?w=367&h=498

http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/afghan4.jpg?w=297&h=179

http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/deh-e_hazara_afghan.jpg?w=460&h=299

http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/afghanchildjalalabad.jpg?w=332&h=500

http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/afghangirl2.jpg?w=460&h=313

http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/panjshirman.jpg?w=460&h=306

http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/panjshirkids.jpg?w=460&h=306

http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/afghangirl_greeneyes.jpg?w=460&h=491

http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/wakhigirl1_en.jpg?w=460&h=306

http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/nuristani_kids_jalalabad_afgh.jpg?w=316&h=500

[The Lawspeaker]

http://z.hubpages.com/u/11061_f520.jpg

A haunting picture (and very famous) of an Afghan girl (http://hubpages.com/hub/Afghan_Girl_With_Green_Eyes)- taken in 1985.

The photo of the Afghan girl with green eyes by Steve McCurry first appeared on the cover of National Geographic magazine in 1985. Seventeen years later McCurry returned to Afghanistan and succeeded in locating the woman he had photographed so memorably as a girl. She remembered being angry at being photographed by McCurry for the first time in her life. But she allowed him to photograph her again.

[Creeping Death]

These mainly redheaded children are the result of Alexander The Greats, himself redheaded, policy of fusion (http://historicalbiographies.suite101.com/article.cfm/alexanderthegreat) where it was encouraged to marry the locals creating a strong connection with the populace.

[Óttar]

It's nothing less than a tragedy the Dharma lost the Afghans to Islam. They could've been the jewel of a grand Hindu-Buddhist civilization. :(

afghanhindu.com

[Loki]

These mainly redheaded children are the result of Alexander The Greats, himself redheaded, policy of fusion (http://historicalbiographies.suite101.com/article.cfm/alexanderthegreat) where it was encouraged to marry the locals creating a strong connection with the populace.

I don't think so, it possibly has a far older origin. Caucasoids have been in that area for millennia, long before Alexander passed through.

[Beorn]

These mainly redheaded children are the result of Alexander The Great

:no:

Alexander the Great's long-lost descendants. (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6084)


himself redheaded

:loco: Where did you get that information from?

[Psychonaut]

I don't think so, it possibly has a far older origin. Caucasoids have been in that area for millennia, long before Alexander passed through.

Yup. Given the prevalence of R1a1 in Afghanistan (it exceeds 40% in many Afghan groups (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_groups)), I'd reckon that many of these types are descended from the original PIE people.

[Tabiti]

Those are not "Alexander the Great's children" but part of the Pashtuns, still carrying the genes left from their IE ancestors, the ancient population of Afganistan.

[Creeping Death]

I don't think so, it possibly has a far older origin. Caucasoids have been in that area for millennia, long before Alexander passed through.
You would be right, they have uncovered recently in Egypt Red Headed mummies (http://www.egyptorigins.org/ginger.htm) and. When they flew Pharaoh Ramses II mummy to Paris for examination it was found he was redheaded (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramesses_II#Mummy).

EDIT: Discussion relating to Alexander the Great moved here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8185)

[Kadu]

Yup. Given the prevalence of R1a1 in Afghanistan (it exceeds 40% in many Afghan groups (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_groups)), I'd reckon that many of these types are descended from the original PIE people.


I don't think that's the real reason since in West Bengali, India, the R1a frequencies go up to 72%. In my view there must have been some bottleneck situation caused by endogamic(inbreeding) practises wich led to a reduction of the genetic diversity in this ethnic group.
But we will only be sure when geneticists decide to analyse the diversity and age of the R1a Afghan subclades and run autosomal tests too, which if i'm not wrong hasn't been done yet.

[Poltergeist]

http://z.hubpages.com/u/11061_f520.jpg

A haunting picture (and very famous) of an Afghan girl (http://hubpages.com/hub/Afghan_Girl_With_Green_Eyes)- taken in 1985.

Her eyes strikingly resemble those of Natascha Kampusch.

[Treffie]

The Kalash of NW Pakistan can also appear to be very European looking. This poor girl's photo has been on every forum since the internet was invented :D

http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/girl-from-kalash-pakistan-with-facial-tattoos.jpg


Couple more

http://www.indiamike.com/photopost/data/508/6271blondie.jpg

http://www.pamirs.org/images/children/images/girls_blonde_and_dark_vanj.jpg

[jerney]

The majority of these kids don't look "European" facially, they just have light hair and eyes. Give them contacts and a dye job and they'd fit in perfectly with their fellow countrymen.

[LC22]

Kadu :
I don't think that's the real reason since in West Bengali, India, the R1a frequencies go up to 72%.

According to google, 72% is the percentage in the higher castes (Bhramin & Kshatriyas), not in the general population.

Several studies seem to imply that the PIE were R1a1 and that they were Europoids that had a phenotype with features like these Afghans :

The population of the bronze age Andronovo culture (indo-iranian) in central Asia & south Siberia, was almost exclusively R1a1 and with European mtDNA lineages.


http://www.springerlink.com/content/4462755368m322k8/

Ancient DNA provides new insights into the history of south Siberian Kurgan people

Abstract : To help unravel some of the early Eurasian steppe migration movements, we determined the Y-chromosomal and mitochondrial haplotypes and haplogroups of 26 ancient human specimens from the Krasnoyarsk area dated from between the middle of the second millennium BC. to the fourth century AD. In order to go further in the search of the geographic origin and physical traits of these south Siberian specimens, we also typed phenotype-informative single nucleotide polymorphisms. Our autosomal, Y-chromosomal and mitochondrial DNA analyses reveal that whereas few specimens seem to be related matrilineally or patrilineally, nearly all subjects belong to haplogroup R1a1-M17 which is thought to mark the eastward migration of the early Indo-Europeans.
Our results also confirm that at the Bronze and Iron Ages, south Siberia was a region of overwhelmingly predominant European settlement, suggesting an eastward migration of Kurgan people across the Russo-Kazakh steppe. Finally, our data indicate that at the Bronze and Iron Age timeframe, south Siberians were blue (or green)-eyed, fair-skinned and light-haired people and that they might have played a role in the early development of the Tarim Basin civilization (i.e. in Xinjiang, north-western China). To the best of our knowledge, no equivalent molecular analysis has been undertaken so far.


http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1691686

Unravelling migrations in the steppe: mitochondrial DNA sequences from ancient central Asians.

This study helps to clarify the debate on the Western and Eastern genetic influences in Central Asia. Thirty-six skeletal remains from Kazakhstan (Central Asia), excavated from different sites dating between the fifteenth century BC to the fifth century AD, have been analysed for the hypervariable control region (HVR-I) and haplogroup diagnostic single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) of the mitochondrial DNA genome. Standard authentication criteria for ancient DNA studies, including multiple extractions, cloning of PCR products and independent replication, have been followed. The distribution of east and west Eurasian lineages through time in the region is concordant with the available archaeological information: prior to the thirteenth-seventh century BC, all Kazakh samples belong to European lineages; while later an arrival of east Eurasian sequences that coexisted with the previous west Eurasian genetic substratum can be detected. The presence of an ancient genetic substratum of European origin in West Asia may be related to the discovery of ancient mummies with European features in Xinjiang and to the existence of an extinct Indo-European language, Tocharian. This study demonstrates the usefulness of the ancient DNA in unravelling complex patterns of past human migrations so as to help decipher the origin of present-day admixed populations.
--
Haplogroups present in modern Kazakhs, such as B, F, C, Z, D, R, J and Y, were not observed in the prehistoric Kazakhs.

By contrast, two haplogroups observed among the ancient samples, W and I, have not yet been found among modern Kazakhs.

The results also indicate that there is an excess of west Eurasian haplogroups in comparison with those currently found (notably haplogroups H and U). However, this may be attributed to the overrepresentation of the earlier temporal period with only west Eurasian haplogroups. The observed absence of east Eurasian sequences prior to the eighth to seventh century BC suggests an earlier prehistoric expansion of peoples containing west Eurasian sequences into Asia, that probably went further east, into present-day China. This expansion may be related to the discovery of mummies that contain European features and west Eurasian mtDNA sequences in the Tarin basin, China, as well as the relict Indo-European Tocharian. "

I think there is not much suspense anymore on the question of the early indo-europeans.


But we will only be sure when geneticists decide to analyse the diversity and age of the R1a Afghan subclades and run autosomal tests too

But there are interesting informations :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a_%28Y-DNA%29#Eastern_European_Origin_Theories

The most recent proponent of a Balkan origin is Anatole Klyosov. Not only does he also believe that the R1a1 genetic diversity there looks older, but he has also written that the "current Indian R1a1 haplotypes are practically indistinguishable from Russian, Ukrainian, and Central Asian R1a1 haplotypes, as well as from many West and Central European R1a1 haplotypes."[29]

source : http://precedings.nature.com/documents/2733/version/

[Kadu]

According to google, 72% is the percentage in the higher castes (Bhramin & Kshatriyas), not in the general population.

Anyway the frequencies are generally greater than in any area of Europe.
My point was that high frequency levels may happen due to bottlenecking or founder effect. One example are the G subclades in my country where they have much higher levels than in our neighbour Spain and yet the Eastern coasts of Spain received much more people from Anatolia and the Middle East when the advent of farming ocurred because their shores are in the Mediterranean.




Still, there are studies that seem to imply that the PIE were R1a1 and that they were Europoids that had a phenotype close to these Afghans :

The population of the bronze age Andronovo (indo-iranian) in central Asia & south Siberia, was almost exclusively R1a1 and with European mtDNA lineages.


True, from that group of thirty individuals the majority was R1a1 but so a great part of the Polish, Serbian and Indian people are too and they all have different phenotypes.
You can't correlate Y chromossome haplogroups with phenotypes, they are good to track migration patterns related to farming or linguistic spreads but when applied to individuals they only represent a very tiny of your ancestry, when working on a micro-scale one should use autosomal tests.

[Allenson]

Some have even placed the general R Haplogroup in central/southcentral Asia before the split into R1a & R1b....

[LC22]

Kadu :
Anyway the frequencies are generally greater than in any area of Europe.

Not always (I think the high percentages are among specific populations).
But like you I don't believe the percentages are that meaningful/precise (whatever the process at work behind it). After all the Kyrgyz of Kyrgyzstan have apparently a high frequency of R1a1 as well and they generally look quite east Asian, neither Indian nor Polish.


when working on a micro-scale one should use autosomal tests

Are you referring to this (and the pic) :

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/05/light-pigmented-caucasoids-from.html


majority was R1a1 but so a great part of the Polish, Serbian and Indian people are too and they all have different phenotypes

They have all mixed with different kind of populations in different quantity for milleniums. Nothing surprising here. Still we have a population almost entirely R1a1 with 90% mtDNA european lineages deep into Asia, during bronze age, in an indo-european (and indo-iranian) archeological context, and with a Europoid phenotype.


You can't correlate Y chromossome haplogroups with phenotypes

In this particuliar case it's a big hint about the origin of this population (especially since, except for one individual with a typical east Asian haplogroup, they were exclusively R1a1).

[Äike]

Maybe some Nordics reached Afghanistan?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/Passing_of_the_Great_Race_-_Map_2.jpg

[The Black Prince]

http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/afghanman_arte.jpg?w=460&h=345

http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/afghan4.jpg?w=297&h=179


Here are some more of these two men, another men from the same tribe as the first one and another pinky skinned oldguy:

http://i40.tinypic.com/kaspbk.jpg http://i40.tinypic.com/2v82tk1.jpg http://i39.tinypic.com/2qtgxvb.jpg
Blond Pathan peasant

http://i40.tinypic.com/2iu74mx.jpg
Pathan with pink skincolour

http://i43.tinypic.com/2dso0mc.jpg
Brownhaired Pathan warrior

http://i44.tinypic.com/2jfm2qg.jpg http://i42.tinypic.com/bec6xc.jpg http://i39.tinypic.com/2itq52g.jpg
Brownhaired Pathanwarrior with blondish (nicotine?) moustache and fierce blue eyes

[F.M.S. Panzerfaust]

Im intrigued with this picture:

http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/_afghanistan_hazara_girl.jpg?w=460&h=358

If a pure-blooded, blue-eyed, nordic type mix with a equally pure-blooded japanese woman, the result will be probably a half breed with black oriental eyes. But this little girld have blue eyes, and blond hair. Wasnt the gene for traits like blue eyes and blond hair to be recessive?

If this is a old mongolid gene, the population around her should be, at least, 75% fair eyed and fair haired, because usually blue eyes are recessive in mixtures, not dominant. Correct me if Im wrong, I thinking here these eyes are the original "hyperborean" eyes, the kind that Sidarta Gautama had - since its said he was blue eyed, but all statues depicting him show him with oriental eyes.

[Goidelic]

I assume they are mainly Pashtuns. I know a Pashtun who looks very fair like a Keltic-Irano Nordid with pseudo-Bruenn like admixture, but his brother looks all Iranid and is very tanned. In the end, I think the fairer ones are lucky to inherit ancient traits probably from old European predecessors. The local Pashtun genepool seems to be genetically heterogeneous. I agree that the examples don't look really European.

[Rhobot]

I wouldn't be surprised if some of these Afghans got their pigmentation from ancient steppe people (e.g. Scythians, Tocharians) who brought Indo-European languages to a region populated by Dravidian- and Burusho-speakers. Central Asia in ancient times seems to have had a fair number of Caucasoid people with northern European phenotypes, judging from mummies found in Xinjiang and Siberia. Due to recombination, you still occasionally see fair hair, light eyes and depigmented skin in remoter mountain areas of Afghanistan, Pakistan and Tajikistan.

[Psychonaut]

I wouldn't be surprised if some of these Afghans got their pigmentation from ancient steppe people (e.g. Scythians, Tocharians) who brought Indo-European languages to a region populated by Dravidian- and Burusho-speakers. Central Asia in ancient times seems to have had a fair number of Caucasoid people with northern European phenotypes, judging from mummies found in Xinjiang and Siberia. Due to recombination, you still occasionally see fair hair, light eyes and depigmented skin in remoter mountain areas of Afghanistan, Pakistan and Tajikistan.

You can still see this among the residents of Xinjiang too. (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3586)

[Treffie]

Im intrigued with this picture:

http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/_afghanistan_hazara_girl.jpg?w=460&h=358



Just guessing here, but these kids are probably Hazara - a Mongolid group in the centre of Afghanistan.

[Nodens]

It'd be really helpful if we had some idea what proto-Eurasians looked like.

[LC22]

Im intrigued with this picture:

http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/_afghanistan_hazara_girl.jpg?w=460&h=358

If a pure-blooded, blue-eyed, nordic type mix with a equally pure-blooded japanese woman, the result will be probably a half breed with black oriental eyes. But this little girld have blue eyes, and blond hair. Wasnt the gene for traits like blue eyes and blond hair to be recessive?

If this is a old mongolid gene, the population around her should be, at least, 75% fair eyed and fair haired, because usually blue eyes are recessive in mixtures, not dominant. Correct me if Im wrong, I thinking here these eyes are the original "hyperborean" eyes, the kind that Sidarta Gautama had - since its said he was blue eyed, but all statues depicting him show him with oriental eyes.

I think that's not that complicated. She's Hazara and as such have mongoloid genes but she is also living in a region where there are a certain quantity of white genes (due to bronze age migrations/invasions of Indo-europeans (the famous "Aryans" of south Asia (India, Iran)). Through random mixing these features pop up.

Refer to the links of mainstream scientifical studies I gave, that basically prove (combined with archeological data) that the early Indo-europeans were indeed whites and that they spread the indo-european languages up to India and Iran etc... those elements do seem to support the Kurgan hypothesis.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=97313&postcount=14

Also in Mongolia, there are a bit of white genes in the gene pool, in the west of the country (in the Altai there are also a lot of R1a1 genes and mtDNA europoid haplogroups from ancient indo-european migrations (see the 2009 study about Krasnoyarsk I gave the link of - it was in a region close to Mongolia) . Some mongoloid ancestors might have brought a bit of these "nordic" genes with them too.

a few images of Mongol with Europoid features (http://pastmist.wordpress.com/critiques-reponses/#mongol)


I agree that the examples don't look really European

A lot of them look quite European. Given the fact that they mixed with very different-looking peoples (and apparently sometimes with recessive genes) for like 4,000 - 3,500 yrs as a minority, that's not surprising that most don't look exactly like European though (or like European at all).

[Brännvin]

Also in Mongolia, there are a bit of white genes in the gene pool, in the west of the country (in the Altai there are also a lot of R1a1 genes and mtDNA europoid haplogroups from ancient indo-european migrations (see the 2009 study about Krasnoyarsk I gave the link of - it was in a region close to Mongolia) . Some mongoloid ancestors might have brought a bit of these "nordic" genes with them too.


a few images of Mongol with Europoid features (http://pastmist.wordpress.com/critiques-reponses/#mongol)


Genetically, Uyghurs and even some others central Asian ethnicities are just result of a recent admixture process. This is not about having "white genes" or "Nordic genes," if it really exists in genetic terms :D, they are their own ethogenesis as a ethnic group.
_______________

The Uyghur (UIG) are a group of people primarily residing in Xinjiang of China, which is geographically located in Central Asia, from where modern humans were presumably spread in all directions reaching Europe, east, and northeast Asia about 40 kya.

A recent study suggested that the UIG are ancestry donors of the East Asian (EAS) gene pool. However, an alternative hypothesis, that is, the UIG is an admixture population with both EAS and EUR ancestries is also supported by our previous studies. To test the two competing hypotheses, here we conducted a haplotype-sharing analysis (HSA) based on empirical and simulated data of high-density single nucleotide polymorphisms.

Our results showed that more than 95% of UIG haplotypes could be found in either EAS or EUR populations, which contradicts the expectation of the null models assuming that UIG are donors. Simulation studies further indicated that the proportion of UIG private haplotypes observed in empirical data is only expected in alternative models assuming that UIG is an admixture population. Interestingly, the estimated ancestry contribution of 44%:56% (EAS:EUR) based on HSA is consistent with our previous estimation with STRUCTURE analysis. Although the history of UIGs could be complex, our method is explicit and conservative in rejecting the null hypothesis.

We concluded that the gene pool of modern UIGs is more likely a sole recipient with contribution from both EAS and EUR.

Check the study here;
Haplotype-Sharing Analysis Showing Uyghurs Are Unlikely Genetic Donors (http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/26/10/2197?etoc)

[SuuT]

Genetically, Uyghurs and even some others central Asian ethnicities are just result of a recent admixture process. This is not about having "white genes" or "Nordic genes," if it really exists in genetic terms :D, they are their own ethogenesis as a ethnic group.
_______________

And yet, a groups biology is difficult, if not impossible, to separate from their ethnogenesis. That our nomenclature regarding such instances is in its infancy does not indicate a negative (i.e. "this is not...") procession in its development as a means of explanation; but, and rather, indicates a reminder that the nomenclature and developing lexicon requires attention, and further study, thought, and refinement.

[LC22]

@ Brännvin :


Genetically, Uyghurs and even some others central Asian ethnicities are just result of a recent admixture process

I'm not sure of what you mean by "recent". If you mean bronze age/iron age, yes, indeed. The first found caucasoid mummies in Xinjiang are 1,800 BC after all. But I wouldn't call it particullarly "recent" personnally.


This is not about having "white genes"

I think it is.

It's not exactly a secret that there have been migration of indo-european europoids reaching the Xinjiang (The first one bringing the Tocharian language substrate) then an another indo-european wave (Indo-iranian-speaking Sakas (aka Scythians)) and of course, they mixed with east Asian populations through the time.
The Europoid haplogroups found there (Y-DNA R1b, R1a1 and also some specific mtDNA haplogroups) are obviously related to this.


if it really exists in genetic terms

You think the white genes don't exist (specific to the white populations) ? I don't understand what you mean.

We concluded that the gene pool of modern UIGs is more likely a sole recipient with contribution from both EAS and EUR.

In other words, they did receive a certain amount of west Eurasian genes. Which is concordant with what I had previously said.

[Lysander]

I actually met an Afghan immigrant once in Rhodos who was one of these. I asked him about it and he said that the common idea among these folks is that they are descendants of Alexander and his soldiers.

Don't know how much of it is true but that's the common folk lore there.


Edit: on a side note I have a friend who's mother has Dark Green/Hazel eyes and who's father has brown eyes but that friend has clear blue eyes and his sister has grey eyes.

[Óttar]

I've heard the Pashtuns have a legend tracing them back to ancient Israel. Whether this is just the product of antiquated biblical pseudo-history I don't know.

[Matritensis]

The majority of these kids don't look "European" facially, they just have light hair and eyes. Give them contacts and a dye job and they'd fit in perfectly with their fellow countrymen.


I strongly disagree.I think the exotic dresses are distracting.

[LC22]

@ Matrisensis : Yes, he certainly can't help focusing on the south Asian features that many got instead of what makes them closer to Europeans than other south asian individuals.

I mean, this guy is 50 % white :


http://www.levillage62.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/people-barack-obama-2542614_1350.jpg

Anyway, as I said, there is not much supense and doubts on the question I think. Genetical studies and archeological findings makes the Kurgan theory the most credible by far, at this point. Basically it's "mistery solved".
Science clearly supports it, so far.

[jamakzai12]

i know someone who looks exactly like that, hes hazara