There's only 2 options in the poll. Everything else is psuedo-science.
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There's only 2 options in the poll. Everything else is psuedo-science.
I offered everyone here and on that project chance to explain how could it have been Slavicized before arrival to Balkans, considering its geographical distribution in Yugoslavia (I2a1b in mountainous, infertile areas, with R1a in fertile plains. Even in Montenegro, which has little R1a, it will immidiatelly pop up if you approach more fertile areas, like in old layers of Kuči and Bjelopavlići clans). No one offered even a single reasonable explanation so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dema
In case it came with Slavs, it would be evenly distributed in comparison to R1a, but that's not the case. It is pretty clear that the later pushed former to the mountains.
Because we know that Slavs were first of all barbarians who permanently settled in Balkan. They were going for Dinaric Alps as that was primary objective for Slavs. From Dinaric Alps you can see Adriatic sea and all lands around it are very fertile.Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmoo
And that is where we find biggest concentrations of I2a1b. It doesn't matter what distribution it has now. We know that original Slavs had more R1a then today. R1a was at least equal to I2a.
For some reason I2a took over and is becoming more and more dominant paternal line among S Slavs even tho at some time they were mixed with R1a and there was no big difference among these people, they were both Slavs crossing the Carpathian mountains.
Also we find I2a-Din on Balkan only there where Slavs have intruded. Deeper in Europe where Slavs never intruded there is barely any CTS 10228, and even if it is we again know that it also come from man living around Poland 2400 years ago.
R1a and I2a come combined and they were Slavs and they had for sure some more smaller haplotypers like some clades of N. There is no possibility that only R1a were Slavs who arrived on Balkan because I2a1 took place of where R1b, j2b and E1b used to be before Slavic arrival.
Look at map of R1b, there is reason why R1b is lacking just at areas which Slavs intruded just as there is reason why there is strongest presence of I2a1b and R1a there:
I2a1b arrived toghether with R1a and took lands of R1b and therefore also of E1b and J2b.
See R1b in Albania, Greece and Italy, but missing only in lands where Slavs (I2a, R1a) intruded.
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/cont...1b-borders.png
Same with J2, missing only where Slavs intruded and where we find high concentration of I2a1b and R1a
While it goes naturally from Greece, Albania to Italy, only missing where Slavs intruded and now we find I2a1 there. Also we dont find I2a1b where Slavs have not intruded.
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/cont...logroup-J2.jpg
I2a1b-Din dates perfectly with the Slavic incursions of FYROM, South Albania and Greece.
Slavs were not really the first babarians to settle here. Jordanes and Procopius tell different story. As do Historia Salonitana and Ljetopis popa Dukljanina, two oldest south Slavic chronicles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dema
Your explanation is in domain of high fantasy. Land in Dinaric Alps is far from fertile. Ever been to Herzegovina?
I2a1b:R1a ratio in Herzegovina, for example, is 6:1, while among northern Slavs it is around 1:4. Going by your logic, every possible thing can be explained as a mere coincidence.
Ken Nordtvedt estimated TMRCA at 2500 ybp in Poland, with sudden expansion starting 2000 ybp. None of those three factors (place, TMRCA date and expansion start) matches Slavs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xhak Bauër
Sudden expansion is due to Slavic movements southwards. The Gothic theory you like to claim is too far fetched and has no basic truth in it.Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmoo
Goths were mostly I1, I2a2, R1b and R1a and also, quite a number of them had mingled with Huns near the Black Sea.
Goths originated from the island of Gotland, there are old tales from Gotland in Sweden about this, zero % I2a1b-"Din".
Here is I2a2 which Goths contained, basically zero % in South Slavs:
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/cont...ogroup-I2b.gif
I know some Albanians who score this I2a2, they are either descended from Goths or Normans.
There were many barbarians but Slavs were the first who permanently settled in the area.Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmoo
Procopius tells just what R1b map confirms it is extermination of native people by Slavs.. That is why there R1b lacks while I2a is most common along with R1a.
My explanation is very logical. There is no I2a1b found over the Rhine river where Slavs never intruded while we find it on all places where Slavs intruded. Also they got low TMRCA of 2400 years originating around Poland. Meaning all of them come from direction of Poland what goes just fine with how Slavs are documented in 6th and 7th century.
That was no accident in R1b map that R1b is lacking only where Slavs have intruded and we find it naturally in Italy, Greece and Albania. While there is all of the sudden now I2a there. I2a1b were the Slavs when they arrived on Balkan just as R1a were.
I2a1b has closest Ydna matches across the Carpathian mountains where are all Slavic (R1a) countries and there is no variations in I2a1b in Balkan, while across the Carpathian mountains they have variations and more diversety.
Also i know what is Hercegovina also i know that Dolina Neretve is not so far from Dinaric Alps and these are like most fertile lands on Balkan.
I always thought historians confused Gotland and goths with Jutland and Jutes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xhak Bauër