European ethnicities on verge of extinction.

[El Palleter]

It's incredible that even to a nice thread like this you have to bring your venomous Catalanophobia.

I'm catalanophilliac you nutcase! Your character is not Catalan to me, it's Jacobin!

I won't follow your game here, this thread doesn't deserve to be derailed.

Exposing the falseness of your arguments is derailing threads?

[Raikaswinþs]

It's incredible that even to a nice thread like this you have to bring your venomous Catalanophobia. I won't follow your game here, this thread doesn't deserve to be derailed.

I have to agree here with the german pal, think this time you shot your gun before there was an actual attack or a mere cheesy provocation. He just made an observation about a particular region where a particular group of catalans savaged and raped the area. But didn´t even blame the whole Catalonia for the situation of today´s regions, but he blamed it on those Anarcho Syndicalists, as an argument to disprove your much more obvious between-lines suggestion that the upper aragonese ethnicity are to be yet another victim of the perfidous castilianization.


Wether I agree with Chateubrian or not is another issue, but I was hoping here from you Jordi am uqualy civilized response to Chateu´s post with counter arguments well backed up

[Comte Arnau]

Tsakonians

Tsakonians are a native Hellenic population group, speakers of Tsakonian (nowadays, fewer than 300), or more broadly, inhabitants of Tsakonia in the eastern Peloponnese and followers of certain Tsakonian cultural traditions, such as the Tsakonian dance.



The term Tsakonas or Tzakonas first emerges in the writings of Byzantine chroniclers who derive the ethnonym from a corruption of Lakonas, a Laconian/Lacedaemonian (Spartan) - a reference to the Doric roots of the Tsakonian language and the people's relatively late conversion to Christianity and practice of pagan Hellenic customs. Tsakonians were noted as fierce warriors and were heavily recruited to serve in the Byzantine army based on their supposedly "Spartan" qualities.



According to the Byzantine historian George Pachymeres, some Tsakonians were resettled by the Byzantine emperor Michael VII Ducas in Propontis. They lived in the villages of Vatka and Havoutsi, where the river Gösen River (Aesepus) empties into the sea. However, based on the preservation of features common to both Propontis and the Peloponnesian dialects, Prof. Thanasis Costakis thinks that the date of settlement must have been several centuries later.



Tsakonians in later time were known for their masonry skills; many were also shepherds. A common practice was for a small crew of men under a mastora to leave their village after the feast of Saint Demetrius and to return at Easter. They would travel as far as Attica doing repairs and white-washing houses.


Old ethnic map of the Peloponnese: Tsakonians in blue.

Tsakonian is found today in a group of mountain towns and villages slightly inland from the Argolic Gulf, although it was once spoken farther to the south and west as well as on the coasts of Laconia (ancient Sparta). There was formerly a Tsakonian colony on the Sea of Marmara (or Propontis; two villages near Gönen, Vatika and Havoutsi), probably dating from the 18th century, whose members were resettled in Greece with the 1924 population exchanges. Propontis Tsakonian appears to have died out around 1970. Tsakonian has no official status. Prayers and liturgies of the Greek Orthodox Church have been translated into Tsakonian, but the ancient Koine of the traditional church services is usually used as in other locations in Greece. Some teaching materials in Tsakonian for use in local schools have reportedly also been produced.

[El Palleter]

Cagots were shunned and hated. They were required to live in separate quarters in towns, called cagoteries, which were often on the far outskirts of the villages. Cagots were excluded from all political and social rights. They were only allowed to enter a church by a special door, and during the service a rail separated them from the other worshipers. Either they were altogether forbidden to partake of the sacrament, or the Eucharist was handed to them on the end of a stick, while a receptacle for holy water was reserved for their exclusive use
[...]

According to a friend of mine who did some research on the Way of St. James (Camino de Santiago) as well as on the Cathars in Occitania and in Spain, and who also wrote a couple of books on it, the Argotes or Cargots were likely former Cathars from Southern France, who stayed in those areas of the Pyrenees while doing the pilgrimage.

In the Basque areas they were only allowed to enter the churches through a door that was smaller, so that they had to bow to come through, as a means to humiliate themselves. It's also true that they would only receive the eucharistic sacrament from the end of a pole stick.

The fanatic stances on Christianity of the Basques, even if nominally Catholic, were not dissimilar to those of pseudo-christianity of Calvinists (unsurprisingly a stronghold in the northern pyrenean slopes of Navarre).

[AinoMaria]

It is to be debated whether these Uralic people can be considered to be "European", though. Many of them have never lived in Europe. The only notable exceptions can be made for Finns, Estonians, Hungarians and some Finnic peoples who live in far Western Russia. These have assimilated into European cultures / gene pools and lived on European soil. Can the Udmurts and Mari really be considered to be "European"?

depends what do you mean by european, at times it looks that as european you just mean the same as indoeuropean, then of course any finnougrics are not european lol, or, if you mean european by looks (what is european look?) then khanty and mansi arent, if you mean by genetics, all haplogrouos have originated outside europe, and n possibly has been in europe the longest since finns were(?) one of the first people in europe.. tough case huh?

so what is your european?

imo, udmurts are prettiest of them:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...type=3&theater



or komi:

[AinoMaria]

There is nothing particulary Eastern European at Baltic-Finns, rather Northern. East Europe is imo, Slavic domain of Orthodox faith(Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Bulgaria etc). Volga-Finnics obviously are part of this group, due to their history and geographical location. Hungarians are rather Central European, or East Central European.

Anyway, Ob Ugrics and Samoyeds are mainly of North Asian origins. It could be said that Ob Ugrics emigrated from East Europe to Siberia and prolly originally were not that mongoloid but intensive admixing with especially Samoyeds have made them what they are now. I wouldnt consider neither Ob Ugrics or Samoyeds as European people at all. Only connection they have to Europe is that they live in Russia, but Russia hardly is typical European country, considering it borders North Korea.

i agree, and mongols attaced on quite many people in eastern eurpe, i think mordvins at least, and im not sure which other people

[Hess]

I've been talking about this exact topic for years now, but no one seems to care.

It reminds of that scene in the Titanic where everyone is dancing, blissfully unaware of the fact that their ship is about to go underwater.

[AinoMaria]

Ok... but they have predominantly Siberian ancestry in the male line (I did not study mtDNA). So it looks something like that:


1. Europe............Ural............<---- proto-FUs....... Siberia....... Samoyeds



2. Europe......Ugrics/ Finnics........... Ural..................Samoyeds



3. Europe......<----Finns and Samis.....Volga Finns and Komi.....Mansi---->....Ural........Samoyeds


4. Baltic Finns...... Volga Finns.... Komi...... Ural..... Mansi..... Samoyeds



Id like to note that if proto-FU split into Finnics and Ugrics in Volga, then the long isolated Komi must have remained where they currently are for millenia. Yet they do not look particularly European.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...type=3&theater